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PostPosted: 19 Nov 2012, 20:24 

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I'm having difficulties running our 5 out motion and 1 in 4 out motion offenses. We've broken down the components and used some of the drills on this site to review cuts, screens and off ball options. In practice, they do fine, in a scrimmage it tends to break down a bit more and by game time, it's looking pretty rough. I probably need to film it to help me explain what I perceive is going wrong.

My point passes to the wing, cuts, and 9 times out of 10, no pass is made. From there, it seems the wing decides to drive in or dribble towards the person filling. They run it in practice for 10 min straight, just passing, cutting and filling. We've covered why they are passing, cutting and filling. Come game time, they can't seem to get through even a half of a rotation before someone either passes and stands there, or decides to drive to the basket for no real reason.

My two rules are good wide spacing and when you pass, you either cut or set an off ball screen. Seems simple enough. Am I missing something on teaching this offense?

Thanks!

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PostPosted: 20 Nov 2012, 07:43 
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Rob -

I never ran the 4 out so my comments will relate to the Open Post ( 5 out ) that we ran.

We only had a couple of cuts that we had to worry about... as simple an offense as one could find. We broke things down in practice like you did.... pass, cut, reverse the ball etc. What I started to do was this rule ( in practice ) 3 ball reversals before you can shoot or take it to the basket. When they got good at this I added another defender and ran it with the same rules. In games, they were allowed to just PLAY the game. They knew I wanted the ball reversed but if someone gave us an open lane to the basket, they had the green light to take it to the hole.... if the D got tired or just sick of defending us, my good 3 point shooters had the green light.

There were times in games when they could not shoot the ball, we were going to force the D to foul us and put us on the line.... IF we weren't in the bonus.... I wanted them to attack the basket. We rarely screened anyone unless it was to set up our counter play which was a flash and back door move.

We spent a lot of time running this so the kids could read and react to what the defense was doing, sag and we reverse the ball. ( I would let my best 3 point shooters take that shot if they sagged and we had a couple of ball reversals ) Some of the hardest teams to defend are the ones that can reverse the ball. IF they overplay, we wanted our players to back door, going all the way to the rim before they filled a spot..... I didn't want them to fake out our own players by cutting half way and coming back and us throwing the ball away. Simple rule.

This is stuff that you have to work on in practice every day, they have to know exactly what you want and what you will allow. Whatever you allow them to do in practice, they will do in games... very simple.

Another rule we had, IF you are standing still for more than a second or two, you are doing something wrong.... you can back door, you can cut and replace yourself.... you can fill a spot. I hope this helps.


http://www.ihigh.com/osbornecardinals/video_886382.html
This is one of our games where we ran the Open Post a lot... the team we played was #8 at the time.


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PostPosted: 20 Nov 2012, 07:51 
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Sorry if I repeat coach Sar. Just read Rob's question real quick.

Be patient. It takes time. It sounds to me like the biggest problem is misuse of the dribble? If that is correct, you can implement a couple rules.

First, I would implement a no dribble rule in practice to start developing good habits and teach them how to play. Play full court no dribble 3on3. Then no dribble 4on4. Then no dribble 5on5. That works wonders for us. You can to meet your pass, face the basket, make good passes, get in triple threat. use your pivot to protect, make good cuts, maintain good spacing, and play fundamentally sound basketball to make it work.

In addition, you could add this rules to your offense for games...

Do NOT dribble unless there is a purpose (drive for a lay up, get better passing angle, pressure release). Do NOT dribble into congested areas.

You may want to adjust the rule, but you get the idea. Sounds like the kids just don't know how to play yet and they need to learn.

I have tons of motion stuff so let me know if you have any other questions.

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PostPosted: 20 Nov 2012, 07:54 
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Also, show them times when they can use their dribble (clear when the post clears out and it's wide open). Show them how to space when they do drive. Keep teaching and teaching and teaching. They will get it and be really good once they learn how to play.

2. Spacing on dribble drive... (1)
a. Post player: On dribble penetration that is above you, slide to short corner.
b. Post player: On dribble penetration that is below you, slide to elbow.
c. On dribble penetration, players without the ball rotate and find a new perimeter spot. Always rotate the same direction as the dribble (if player dribbles with right, everyone else rotates to right). One player should rotate to be a pressure release behind the ball (filling the dribblers original spot).
d. On baseline (corner) dribble penetration, must always have player fill in opposite corner for pressure release. Who ever is closest to baseline drifts to baseline for drift and kick

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PostPosted: 20 Nov 2012, 08:40 
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Great points Jeff -

We did a lot of no dribble stuff too. It teaches kids to move and to be patient, be strong with the ball, NO turnovers. These are 8th grade kids so I am sure that some of them are nervous with the ball and IF they see the slighest opening they are going to the hole. Or they are watching too much TV and want to be like Mike. :-)

Here is a drill we ran to help make our kids tougher with the ball. We called it the MAN MAKER DRILL. Its 3 on 3 no dribble... 3 ) players on the end line and 3 D players at the free throw line. The O players must stay in their 1/3 of the court... the objective of the drill is go get the ball across half court without a dribble. A player on D passes the ball to the middle O player and the drill begins.

I like your progresssion of the No Dribble games Jeff.... it teaches them how to play the game without the dribble... Forcing them to move, get open, come to jump stops when receiving the pass and look for an open player immediately.


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PostPosted: 20 Nov 2012, 09:33 
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I don't know what age of kids you are working with, but from my experience with youth and middle school kids, it's easier to introduce cutting concepts, then screening concepts once they have a solid foundation of cutting.

For 3rd, 4th, and 5th grade kids, you could spend the entire year working on cutting concepts. It might happen quicker, but I don't have as much experience coaching teams at those ages. I've only coached 1 year at each level.

For middle school kids, depending on practice attendance and prior experience, it can take 6 to 12 weeks to get a good foundation of the cutting concepts. 4 weeks for really good players relative to their age. Or as Bob Bigelow likes to say, the youth players that are "less worse".

I'll run this progression of the offense.

http://www.breakthroughbasketball.com/offense/cutters.html

Once they have a good foundation, I'll introduce pass and screen away. I like doing it this way, because all of the same cutting principles still apply. Pass and move, overplayed - go backdoor.

By the way, this will look very ugly early on. At the beginning of the season, I've heard parents complain about me when they weren't aware of my presence. These were also parents that had their teams play for a coach that ran 50 plays in the 7th grade... ha! So they weren't used to my teaching style. Actually, I was the polar opposite of the other coach in regards to most of our coaching methods and philosophies.

At the end of the season, the very same parents came up to me and told me they couldn't believe how good of a job that I did with the kids and the kids seem to be jelling really well offensively. I figured it was sincere since I wouldn't be coaching their kids again.

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PostPosted: 20 Nov 2012, 14:36 

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Hi Joe,,
I'm not too familiar with teaching a Motion Offense but after looking at the progression that you advocate (pass, cut, fill) how and when you would add quick ball reversal to this offense. It seems that the ball stands still for a bit while the receiver waits for the passer to finish his cut to the rim and for the fill player to get to the cutters spot. Also, if you ran a 4 out 1 in what role would the post player play. Would he act as a screener for the basket cuts. It seems that if you post him up on the block, the cutter to the rim would have to shorten his route and break off sooner.

Dave

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PostPosted: 20 Nov 2012, 15:17 

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I’m working with 8th grade boys.

Appreciate the input, very helpful. We've used the no dribble technique in practices over the years and you’ve reminded me that we need to do this again, in practice. Dribbling is a problem, along with "taking it to the hole" at inopportune times. My players aren’t as patient since we've moved up to the most competitive division this year.

I see this frequently: the initial pass goes to the wing, the passer cuts; the ball side wing gets pressured right away, no pass to cutter. The off ball wing fills, but not in an aggressive manner, so the wing with the ball gets impatient and either drives to the basket or dribbles towards the top.

Are there some simple rules for the player who receives a pass? I tell them triple threat, look for cutter (or someone else back cutting), pass back up to fill. They know to drive if they can cross the defender’s face. They also know to take an open shot; however, I spread our offense out pretty wide, so most of the shots would be 3 pointers.

I like the 3 ball reversal rule. I’m almost at a point where in a game, I want to see them pass, cut, and fill a few times before taking a shot. The person with the ball seems too impatient to make something happen.

Appreciate the rotation rules when someone dribbles. I always tell my kids if you’re dribbling, it’s either towards the nail or the low block.

Have a scrimmage tonight, I’ll have them run it and watch, then throw out an update of what I saw.

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PostPosted: 20 Nov 2012, 15:46 
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I'm not sure if you saw this post on running the 5-out motion. It could be helpful:

viewtopic.php?f=73&t=810

Dave, for the 4-out, I don't run that a whole lot at the youth and middle school level. If I do, the cutter will still use their same rules. I will tell the post when the ball is swung, wait for the 1st cutter to go through before you cut to the ball side.

One season I had a few bigger players, so I would tell them to post for 3 to 4 seconds if they felt they had an advantage. If they couldn't get the ball, back screen somebody or go to an open spot. I didn't spend much time on this, but by giving them those simple rules it was quite effective.

Once I had the foundation of cutting and screening away, I would also teach them how to move off passes into the post.

When cutting, cut low or cut high - Don't bring your man to the post player. Keep space when cutting. If in low post, cut through the elbow. If in high post, cut along the baseline.

If screening, just pass and screen away. If the ball was on the wing, I didn't care if they screened for the top or the corner. After the screen, the screener fills the spot or cuts to the basket if open. Sometimes, you'll find that a screen away, then a quick cut to the basket is wide open.

Players on the opposite side of the floor would either exchange or screen for each other. I didn't really care what they did as long as they moved to keep the helpside defense occupied.

I liked to show them options and let them play. Is it ugly at first? Yes. But once they start to get it, it's so beautiful.

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PostPosted: 20 Nov 2012, 16:48 
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Dave -

Once you catch a pass, you can shot fake, pass fake etc.... as for waiting for the cutter to finish... thats a little late to be passing to him..... the pass should come as soon as he breaks past his defender... otherwise its time to look for the reversal pass. It seems like a lot of kids are trying to make those passes late..... by that time the cutter is open.

Pass to the wing... you might V cut and make a swim move in front of your defender... at that point you are OPEN... get him the ball. As for the person coming off a screen.... you need to pass him the ball as soon as you can as he clears the screener. Learn to read the defense.

How old are your players Dave?


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