does this also work when you play against zones? do you suggest any modifications if you were to run it against a zone?

Hi Joe,

You can tweak things to make it work against a zone. You could have them fill spots rather than just through the lane. For example, when they cut, you could have them fill the mid post and/or the short corner.

We talk about this more in-depth in the Motion Offense eBooks and the audio interview included with the product.

Will get the e-book after the Easter holiday, but why is it best for the other 3 players to stand around rather than say exchanging on the weakside and/or having the strongside corner moving and replacing himself? Or would this be added in later after learning the basket cut?

Do you have any specific set plays off this offense? What I really like is how it spreads the court. I coach a very basketball smart 8th grade girls with no true star.

Joe,

That is certainly a possiblity. I have not tried that. I'm worried it could mess with the timing, but it could also make the offense more effective. Try it and see what happens. If you don't like it, you can always take it out.

Mark,

There are an infinite amount of plays you could do. Take some of the plays in our plays section or plays ebook. Start with 5 out, a pass and cut, then go from there.

http://www.breakthroughbasketball.com/plays.html

If you have not downloaded our free plays ebook, go here: http://www.breakthroughbasketball.com/freebooks.html

can i stick a backscreen in and call it wildcats?

I've been forced to use this offense since 2 of my post players have been unable to attend a few games and tournaments.
I haven't been a fan of the 5-out because of being out of place to box out and rebound.
It is a perfect offense if you have a team that never misses. We practice collasping to box out on shot.
It has been working for my girls AAU JV team.

I'm intrigued by the idea of a 5 out offense, but like the above poster, I'm worried about rebounding. What instructions should you give the kids for rebounding and court balance? Who should rebound and who should stay back?

Greg - I would always have the person at the top of the key responsible for getting back on defense. Everyone else should crash the boards!

Keep in mind that this spread offense will get lots of dribble drive penetration. That allows you to get lots of rebounds in the following ways...

1) The player driving gets close to the basket and if they miss, they are in good position for the put back rebound.

2) Teach their teammates to follow the player driving to the basket. Many times if you follow a player driving in for a lay up, you'll find the ball in your lap for a rebound. That's one of the best times to crash the boards.

If you emphasize rebounding, teach players to anticipate, and teach players where the ball is most likely to go, you can rebound very effectively with this offense.

If you really want to get good at rebounding, check out this book. Follow the advice there and you can rebound extremely well no matter what offense you run.
http://www.breakthroughbasketball.com/pr/rebounding.html

I ran this for 3 years with a few more wrinkles. I allowed the passer to either pass and cut or pass and screen away. The guy being screened would then either replace the screener or curl to the basket and then the same action would occur with replacing and floor balance.

I also liked the dribble hand off with the option to go backdoor or curl off the hand off. With these options, the defense would have to worry about more things happening.

I just concluded my 5th grade boys season and ran a motion offense for the first time this year. I absolutely loved the offense! I initially tried a 1-3-1 set but found the boys at the free throw line and under the basket "got lost" - never were fully involved. I transitioned into a 5-out where all five became much more involved. We had a few basic rules but really stressed and practiced for the kids to be able to read the defense for opportunities. The kids loved being in control. I really believe teaching the kids to read and react rather than being somewhat mechanical with set plays speeds in their understanding of the game. We played several teams that were lost if their set plays did not work. Sticking to some basic Motion Offense rules lessens these chaotic moments. I recommend the Motion Offense ebook - great resource! I can't wait to get back in the gym with the kids.

The 5 out cutters offense seems very similar to the Read and React System by Rick Torbett. This is a motion offense with specific actions for certain movements. For example, when you pass you must cut and others will fill spots as well as dribble at someone and backdoor cut. These are basic motion rules but in the Read and React there are rules which allow the players to know what to do in different situations. I really enjoy this offense because it is teaching young men how to play the game. Also, it can be run against man and zone which is great. Against a zone after you pass you fill one of the 4 spots in the lane and wait until the next pass is made to leave. Great offensive system and also Great website y'all are running. I have been hooked for the last few days!

I would like to ask a few questions of the crowd here, as I have attempted to implement this offense in mid-season to keep our kids from dribbling aimlessly and trying to do the same thing everytime down court. They are 9-10-year-olds. I have had some success at matching them up two-on-two with me passing the ball. This was aimed at teaching them to move without the ball and screen for each other, curl and basket cut.

When I put five together on the court and try to get them moving, they all move. No problem there. Problem is they don't move to a spot that would make the rules work. If the point passes to a wing and goes to set a screen, and the wing opposite is gone cutting to the basket, then clearing out to the corner, and the corner man is standing in the short corner five feet away, the opposite corner has crashed the boards, and we have a smashup in the lane. I can't deal with the lack of disciplined movement. I have attempted to lecture them on moving with a purpose thusly: If you leave your spot on the floor (other than to crash the boards), you must do one of four things: cut to the basket, screen away from the ball, screen on the ball, or v-cut to get open on the perimeter.

I have been sold on 5-out for a while now, but implementing it is not easy at all, and certainly can't be done in one practice with the level of grey matter I have. We have five with some talent and five that can't tie their shoes.


I have the book, but here is what I'd really like to see: how about taking some kids say, 13-14 and shooting video of them moving in a patterned way without defense to get the basics down, then later in the video with defense to give them the perspective of keeping spacing? Video wouldn't have to be more than 20 minutes. This is all so simple, but so foreign to these kids. Any suggestions would be appreciated greatly. And what about video? Anyone skilled in that area? I'd pay $100 for it.

Coach Roberts,

I can feel your pain. I just started working with a group of 3rd graders as well. I can tell you one thing, if you’re striving for control and discipline, you might as well quit or run a patterned offense which you don’t want to do. You’re not trying to develop robots. 9 & 10 year olds are not mentally capable to do the things that you want.

On the first day, I gave them the simple rule of pass and move. They were running into each other, all moving at the same time, tripping, and everything else.

Now before I give you this step by step advice, keep this in mind. Things are going to look UGLY for the next few years. It’s just part of the developmental process. But when they start to hit 6th, 7th, & 8th grade, you’ll see how they are light years ahead of everybody else. And when you start to see a few of your kids playing high school ball, it should be very rewarding.

Here is a sample 3on3 progression to get them started:

1. Teach them how to catch, pivot, & get in triple threat off of every pass. If they don’t, automatic turnover.
2. After every pass, basket cut.
3. No Dribble – they can’t dribble the ball. Teaches them to value the pass.
4. 2 Dribble Limit (maybe 3 for 9&10 year olds)- this teaches them to get somewhere with the dribble.
5. After every pass, set a ball screen.
6. After every pass, set a ball screen or basket cut.
7. After every pass, set an away screen.
8. After every pass, move. If they don’t catch & pivot, automatic turnover.

Now, this progression could easily take the whole season to go through if not next year too.

Every time, I would walk them through the progression without a defense. Then, I would add a defense and play 3 on 3 or 4 on 4.

Also, this DVD is perfect for this age group: http://www.breakthroughbasketball.com/pr/bigelow-youth-right-way.html

Thanks, Joe, for the wise advice. I wrote this late last night after a headache-inducing practice. Our team has won four out of seven games this season. The four games we won we won by thirty or more. The ones we lost were by large amounts also. The disparity of talent at this age is amazing.

What are your thoughts on putting together a video of some younger kids running the 5-out cutters. It would be far more powerful than attempting to teach them individually or as a group. They could watch the video over and over and over until they get the sequencing, spacing, etc.

I have added a post-up cut for my 5. He's really tall and athletic, and it could be that he scores most of our points. I'm a bit of a purist in that I want all the kids to have a good experience, but I'm starting to realize how little control I have over that.

Thanks again for the tips!

Coach Roberts, that Bigelow DVD I posted above has a little on teaching offense to a youth team. We are also developing some more DVDs that go more in-depth on teaching offense among many other things to beginners and advanced youth players.

The Cutters DVD is a good idea. However, I wouldn't fixate on it too much with a youth team. Even though, it is going to be ugly at first, I like to teach them the motion.

Be careful about getting them to watch a DVD over and over again. I know you want what is best for the kids, but from my experience, kids dislike watching instructional DVDs and we don't want them to get the same feelings towards basketball. I loved basketball and even when I was in high school, I still didn't enjoy watching DVDs. Now, I average about 5 a week.

And don't worry about the wins and losses. This usually affects parents more than it does the kids. Ten minutes after the game is over, the kids are more concerned with where they can eat some pizza.

Usually the coaches who teach the right things take bumps and bruises all the way thorugh the 6th grade level. From feedback, this seems to be the age that they start to really turn things on from years of doing things the right away. Sometimes, it's 6th grade. Sometimes, it's 7th grade. Sometimes, it's not until they reach high school. I know a coach who took bumps and bruises along the way and ended up 43-0 record their 8th grade year. He coached a smaller, private school team and now they have 8 of 10 players who made the teams at the local Kansas City high school which is a pretty big deal. You're usually lucky if you can have 1 or 2 kids make the team in the KC area.

I like the idea of getting everyone involved especially if you have 5 athletic players on the court. I coach M.S. girls basketball (grades 7,8). I'm a little concerned that if any of the cuts aren't open, it'll just become a passing game. I've seen this in some of the other motion offenses I've run, especially against zones. I have to call time out and tell my girls that the object of the game is to score! :) I've coached boys & girls and I find girls at this age don't seem to attack the basket as much as boys and they sometimes over-pass (at least the girls teams I've had).

I will be implementing this open post offense this year for my freshman group. We simply do not have a post player. Question however is what do you teach in terms of how player relocate when there is penetration? Any help would be great.

That's a good question, C.

There are different things you can do. Some teach circle movement. If a player dribbles to the right, all of the players rotate one spot to the right.

Since I want my players to get smarter, I tell them to fill a spot. Sometimes, they won't even have to move to find an open spot. Sometimes, you will drive and they will have to move. Don Kelbick told me that he likes to take his offense through situations and show them where the defense might come from and let them decide where they should go.

Here are some concepts that I will teach: http://www.hoopsplaybook.ca/tactics/5-out_youth_drive_and_kick.html

Can this open post offense be used against all zone defenses? Thank you.

Respectfully,
Robert Capen
7th Grade CYO Boys Coach
Bayside, New York

Yes, it can. However you''ll want to make adjustments to use banana cuts, finding gaps, stopping to post up, etc.

Our head coach (I assist) plans to run this offense for a fifth grade B team with the attendant range of skill levels. However, I'm struggling with a few issues, and would appreciate any feedback or ideas from others that have implemented it successfully with this age group.

We tried to implement this offense last year with a 4B team, but I don't think it translated well and we scored most of our points off of fast breaks, perimeter shots and free-form penetrations.

Initially, it was a challenge to get the kids set up in the 5 spots and then to hold position with any consistency. The boys had a tendency to move towards the paint, and if one player wanders (assuming you get set up to begin with), this offense seemed to really break down. A lack of so-called player discipline, which is a huge issue with younger kids, seems to be a problem with this and other more structured offenses. However, in my view the struggle with coaching many young players is developing some aggressiveness (the "on-court observers"), so I would rather trade structure for developing some scoring instincts. How are other coaches dealing with this in the context of the 5 out motion offense?

The other problem I have is putting 2 players along the baseline, essentially as placeholders in the corner, since they are too far out to take a quality shot if you do push the ball to them. These are also the first spots to fill on transition for the kids that listen, but it has seemed like asking them to run to a spot effectively takes them out of the play/game. Other kids avoid the corner spots like the plague since they recognize very quickly that the ball does not come to the corner player very often and that the spacing/placement tends to break down in any case after the initial pass or penetration.

The final issue is rebounding. We tell the kids to stay in their spots and hold the perimeter but then tell them to crash the boards as soon as we take a shot. Its confusing for them. Our offensive rebounding out of this offense was horrible last year. The problem was that the players have a lot of ground to cover to get to the hoop and its easy to box them out. We also got trapped as we were slow to the rebound and then out of position for the fast break coming back at us.

Recognizing that this is a B team of 10 and 11 year olds, do people think this offense is simply too much to expect and that it would be better off focusing on basket cuts and simpler give and go plays that are "read" based? Any ideas on how to get the baseline players more involved and to improve rebounding and transitioning to defense if you stay with this offense?

Thanks.

For 4th and 5th graders, it will be difficult for them to run this offense exactly as demonstrated above. I like to teach the players spots, how to spread out, and offensive concepts. If you can teach them to pass and cut, then go backdoor when overplayed, you'll be ahead of the game.

If you would like to place some players in the post, I say go for it. However, be careful, because if players are just stuck in the post area, they never develop ball handling skills, and don't develop into well-rounded players. That's the reason I like the 5-out.

But as I'm sure you already figured out, getting them to dribble, pass, and maintain body control (footwork) among other things is enough by itself.

It sounds like you're on the right path.

what is the best defense to play against a team that runs this offense?

I'm a rookie coach, so forgive my ignorance. After a pass, on the basket cut is it best for the passer/cutter to cut along the ball-side of his defender or the other side? I'm coaching 6th grade boys if that makes a difference.

And thanks for the great website.

Tom,

Welcome to the greatest game in the world... we all start somewhere so don't worry about too many things. Teach fundamentals as best you can and please teach them how to play m2m defense.

As for the cut... A passes to B on the wing... and A makes a V cut and tries to cross the face of his defender as he makes the cut to the basket.. make sure he is looking for a return pass.

Hope this helps.

Tom, depending on the coach you ask, you might get two different options.

Some coaches teach their players to always try to face cut because they swear they get more lay ups out of it. That meas that the offensive player will pass, then fake in the opposite direction, then cut in front of the defender's face towards the basket.

Some coaches will teach two cuts. One is the face cut mentioned above. You use that when the defender does not move on the pass. The second would be a rear cut. This is done when the defender jumps to the new defensive position "on the line. up the line." This makes it difficult to face cut. So rather than trying to get in front of the defender, the offensive player just cuts straight to the basket.

Joe:

I'll be coaching a 14u AAU team this year. Do you find this offense effective at this level? We ran the flex last year on my 13u team and it was effective, but we'll have several skilled guards this year and I wanted to add a spread offense to take advantage of their skills. Are there any other spread offenses you'd recommend? Thanks.

Mike -

We ran an Open Post Offense at the high school level... our main rule was DON 'T FIGHT PRESSURE, back door and go all the way to the rim.
We ran our set a little higher so we could get more back door looks - to each his own on this.

We reversed the ball a few times to break down the defense, then we were looking for cutters
( which we would take off the first pass if he was open) getting open going to the basket... TAKES from the wing if the help D broke down (and from the top if everyone was in a denial position) and 3s when they got lazy and didn't cover us well.

You can do a search for Open Post Double Up Offense

Mike, I think you would definitely find it effective with the right personnel. St. John's used it at the college level to beat Duke last year.

I like to use the 5-out and teach the basic pass and cut, pass and screen away, then let them just go motion where they pick what they are going to do.

I will also have a few sets to counter defenses like high pick and rolls and flare screens to counter sagging defenses.

If a player ever has an advantage in the post, I will allow them go to the post or post for 2 seconds after the cut.

I have run this offense with a variety of underage groups fro nearly 20 years with good success at all age group levels and with boys and girls. It teaches kids to move without the basketball, to look to score first through square up and rip through when they catch the ball. Above all it teaches timing, decision making and can be used as the basis for any terminal plays. It demands good spacing and good cutting techniques.