Youth League Board Meeting - Need Assistance

I have been using this site to help organize my practices, develop skills drills, game strategy, etc for the last 2 plus years (3rd and 4th grade and now my 5th grade team). The article about “What’s Wrong With Your Youth Basketball Leagues” ( http://www.breakthroughbasketball.com/coaching/developmental-league.html ) caught my attention a couple of years ago…especially the part about rules regarding zone defenses and full court pressure for these young kids. I didn’t think much about it as our league doesn’t allow pressure until 5th grade and the last 2 years we played smaller everything with no pressure until the last 2 minutes. So, this year we enter 5th grade and now we are using regulation size balls, 10’ goals, full regulation size courts, full court pressure, man/zone defenses, etc. Wow! What a difference. In our second game, I quickly saw that essentially we just end up with fast breaks and full court pressure all game long so kids are running up and down the court…chaos as you can imagine. I remembered this article, reread it again this year and thought now I get it. So, I sent the article link and the league progression example to the board of our league my boys play and in and they are very interested in considering rule changes. Now they have asked me to their next meeting to discuss these ideas. I’m think, what did I get myself into at this point? :o) Seriously, I’m just an ordinary dad that played baseball, soccer, track, and basketball in high school and loves coaching his sons in every sport they play….not because I’m a good coach, but because in 2 more years they will have “paid” coaches and I will be cheering from the stands only. I was hoping the group could help “coach” me as I prepare to discuss the structure of our league and our league progression.
Here is the progression example I emailed the president.

8 to 10 Year Olds (3rd & 4th Grade):
Play 3 on 3 basketball.
No pressing, traps, or zone defenses.
Man to man defense cannot come outside 3-point line.
Equal Playing Time.
No 3-pointers
Height of Rim - 8 to 9 Feet
Junior Ball - 27.25" - 27.75" (8.75") - International Size 5

10 to 12 Year Olds (5th & 6th Grade):
Start to introduce 5 on 5, but still use 3 on 3 to teach basketball concepts in practice.
No pressing, traps, or zone defenses.
Man to man defense can come to half court. Full court man to man pressing is allowed in the last 4 minutes of the game. No organized presses (1-3-1, 2-2-1, etc.)
Equal Playing Time
No 3-pointers
Height of Rim - 9 to 10 Feet
Intermediate Ball - 27.75" - 28.5" (9") - International Size 6

I really appreciate any input.
Joe

Joe,

I like the progression you have here.... the only thing I would get rid of is the pressing in the last 4 minutes for the 5th and 6th graders ...... the 3rd to 6th grade should be all about teaching fundamentals and letting them have fun. Pressing is chaos so why ruin what you are working so hard to accomplish by allowing that in the last 4 minutes.... and essentialy everything you have been teaching goes out the window.... kids at that age cant handle that pressure.

JMO

The best youth team I ever had we brought along very slowly.... 6th grade ... all m2m and a non structured offense... 7th grade all m2m and added a little structured offense to the mix.... along with some m2m full court pressing. 8th grade we added a zone to the mix ... a simple match up as I didn't want to confuse them... we pressed full court m2m and zone.... and we tweaked the offense for them to make them better.

When I moved to the high school level I wished that all lower level coaches would teach m2m D so your program is well on the way to help your kids play at the next level and thats what its all about. Good luck.

Thanks for the reply Coach Sar. I cannot take credit for that progression as that was in the article. I really like the idea of 3v3 as well but logistically might not be feasible.

Do you have any points that I should be sure to bring up when I present these ideas to the league? I'm reading all the stuff on why zones should be outlawed now. Just want to be fully prepared when I discuss why our league should consider changing. Thanks again.

I might come across to strong for those people..... the GAME is for the kids.. first and foremost it has to be FUN, especially at that age.... or they will burn out or be dissappointed and quit after a few years.

MOST kids of that age don't shoot very well (not all - but most) so all zone defenses would encourage is shooting from the perimeter AND it really doesn't teach them anything about the game... how to handle the ball and read defenses... which is really tough at any age, but at this age... hard. So this is something they need to work on - learn the game and have some fun playing. I think that article put it much better than I am........

Do you have the Bob Bigelow DVD? He does a great job of explaing Youth Basketball and how it should be taught. I think Jeff and Joe have it on this site... but you can go to you tube and get a small sample of what he has to say.

The bottom line - ZONE DEFENSES are NOT in the BEST INTEREST of the KIDS. IF they are not in agreement with you... tell them to sign into this site and ask all the coaches that post here. They will give you the same answers I am giving. IF you ask any high school coach worth his salt, he will tell you or ask you to please teach m2m fundamentals.

Joe, way to take the initiative to better youth basketball in your area! Kudos to you.

Coach Sar, I understand your point on the man to man full court pressing for 5th & 6th graders in the last 4 minutes of the game. I don't think you should allow trapping. However, I found that kids were getting discouraged when I wouldn't let them pick up their man past half court when they were losing late in the game. Maybe I should have said, "well, if we play better, we don't have to worry about it." Maybe it should be last two minutes?

Hey Joe, 3v3 is actually more feasible than 5v5. You can fit 12 players on the court rather than 10. I probably didn't clarify in the article, but play 3v3 half court.

Coach Sar, here is the link to the Bob Bigelow DVD that you mention: http://www.breakthroughbasketball.com/pr/bigelow-youth-right-way.html

Yes, we sell it on our website and we highly recommend it.

Joe, thanks for the link to the video - I hope that helps clarify that for Joe as he goes to the meeting.

Maybe a two minute pressing time would be a good compromise ..... I just wouldn't the game to turn into mayhem just for the sake of a W.

Here's another rule to consider:

- For 3 on 3, a different player must enter (dribble) the ball from half court on each possession (so all players have an opportunity to improve their dribbling).
- For 5 on 5, you could do the same thing and require different players to bring up the ball.

Not sure if the league can make that fly but it definitely would be good for the players from a development stand point. I'm thinking about starting my own local player development league and I was going to implement that rule. But this would be my own league in a controlled environment, so I can do what ever I want. :) I also intend to stop play myself to fix fundamental issues during games and make sure they play the right way. (I got this idea from Jim McGannon. He says the parents love it because it makes the players better.)

Also, here is the link were we gave recommendations on specific rim heights based on age level:
viewtopic.php?f=63&t=343

BTW, I think it's awesome you are taking part in making these changes and improving the league.

Oh yeah. You might want to limit the # of players per team. In games you only want about 8 or 9 players on the team. Anything beyond that makes it too hard to divide up minutes and give players meaningful minutes.

I was thinking about the pressing issue.... and I think we have to step back and look at our goals... we all know the kids want to win... but at what cost? Thats why I am torn about allowing the press at that age level.

You have to come up with a good answer/philosophy ..... we dont allow that at your age because we are trying to TEACH you the right way to play this game and its not all about the W. Learn to play good solid half court m2m defense and at our level we wont need to worry about pressing in the last few minutes to save a game.

How many games does your team play Joe H. ?? Maybe you could say in the last 1/3 or 1/2 of the season we will be allowed to press for 2 minutes in the last quarter.

Thoughts?

Thanks Jeff. I totally agree with limiting team size. I had 8 last year (played 5) and that was perfect. 10 this year so they only get to play ½ the game. Oh well.

OK - I’m gaining some positive points to present not allowing pressing, zone defenses and how this allows more focus on skill development and more emphasis on fun instead of winning. Any other ideas on the benefits for the progression above and going away from our current system? I guess this would help.
Our current league progression
3rd Grade
8’ goals
27.5” balls
½ court and there is no backcourt
Cannot extend the defense beyond the 3 point arc
full court press in last 2 minutes
Cannot “play defense” when lead is 20 or greater
Everyone plays at least ½ (depends on team size)
try to limit 10 kids per team

4th Grade
9’ goals
28.5” balls
½ court
Cannot extend the defense beyond ½ court and there is no backcourt
full court press in last 2 minutes
Cannot “play defense” when lead is 20 or greater
Everyone plays at least ½ (depends on team size)
try to limit 10 kids per team

5th Grade
10’ goals
30” balls
full court and back court is called
Play any defense at all times except with a 20 point or more lead.
Everyone plays at least ½ (depends on team size)
try to limit 10 kids per team
6th – 12th is pretty much the same as 5th except they allow for subs whenever you want and each player is only required to play 1 quarter.

Rules Link: http://cibl.org/rulesandregs1011.cfm

Finally, what might be the downside to my proposed league progression? I was thinking I might hear, “They will face zone and pressure when they get older?” or “Aren’t we better to prepare them for “real” basketball sooner than later?” Another comment might be, “you still develop skills playing zone, right?” Again, I’m just trying to cover everything that might come up. There is always opposition no matter what so I will need to counter that.
Thanks again.

Finally, what might be the downside to my proposed league progression? I was thinking I might hear, “They will face zone and pressure when they get older?” or “Aren’t we better to prepare them for “real” basketball sooner than later?” Another comment might be, “you still develop skills playing zone, right?” Again, I’m just trying to cover everything that might come up. There is always opposition no matter what so I will need to counter that.

As for this........ YES, they will face zones and pressure when they get older.... and IF ALL you are interested in is the Ws... go ahead and press and trap all over because kids at this age cant handle that type of game. BUT, that is NOT teaching them how to play... its teaching them how to WIN and that shouldn't be the GOAL of your program.
Can 3rd and 4th graders shoot very well.... NO they cant... so what are they learning when the are facing zones? Most 5th graders are NOT good shooters either ..... I'm glad that you are willing to take up this cause and I hope they don't throw that out at you.
The goals of your program should be - from level to level - be able to play at the NEXT level.... and ultimately play high school varsity ball. Who cares if you go 30-0 at the 3rd grade level (or any lower level) IF they cant play once they get to high school. OK, sorry for the rant - GOOD LUCK.
By the way, the rant wasn't meant for you.... its for the league.

Coach Sar, I used to coach 5th & 6th grade teams. The league allowed for pressing and zones. Funny thing is that I organized the league, but I forgot to include those rules.

We played all man to man. It was frustrating for the kids, because they would get pressed and zoned some games and if they were losing, I still wouldn't let them press.

However, I told them that I would let them press (only man to man) for the last two minutes of the game IF WE WERE LOSING.

I don't coach that age level anymore, just a 7th grade team and a varsity team.

Maybe no pressing would be the best. My worry would be the coaches who want to press. Having the compromise where they could press the last 4 minutes might make it easier for the new rules to pass.

The good ole "Win - Win" eh Joe? I guess that half the pie is better than none.

Someone needs to coach those coaches as to what is best for the kids and forget the Ws. That took me some time to understand also.

First of all, zone defense is for $%^&%*s. You need the fundamentals of M2M to play zone anyway. Make sure you're board realizes that.

Second, pressing and fast breaks should be allowed in limited circumstances at the 5yo+ level. Change the circumstances as the kids get older. In our league we can fast break all game and can press in the last 2 min. I think there are score limits as well.

Truthfully, I think you might want to look more at your ball, hoop, and court sizes. I think the full size ball is too large. And the 10 foot hoop is too larger. Use a smaller ball and lower hoop. I would use jr. balls and 9 to 9.5 ft. hoops. Move the free throw line up a foot or 2. This will go a long way to making the game better for the kids.

As for wining, I just don't think you can or should take that aspect out of the game. To tell the kids that wining doesn't matter or is not important is nonsense. It does matter to the kids. They go out and practice to get better. They put their heart and soul into it. The kids should be playing to win. Why else would they be out there?

Now the "ADULTS" should be about development and need to keep the winning in perspective. First, they need to set up a league which allows each team a fair chance to win. Get the teams as even as possible. Set the rules up regarding defenses, presses, fast breaks, etc. so as not to take advantage of less skilled kids. Keep the teams small -- 8 kids -- so they all get a good amount of playing time. Work with the volunteer coaches to train them how/what to do. Etc. Good luck.

Facing zones when older...

Yes. That is true. However, players need to build a foundation of fundamentals first. There needs to be a logical progression. In school we do this. In baseball we do this. In soccer we do this.

In school, just because a kid has to take a pre-calculus class in high school doesn't mean that we have them starting learning calculus the first day of school. We teach them addition, subtraction, etc and progress from there. Well, zones and pressing is an advanced tactic for basketball, so it should be left for the advanced levels. In order to get good at beating these tactics, players need a strong foundation first and by having coaches prepare to play against zones and practices zones wastes valuable time that they could be spending on preparing these kids for junior high and high school basketball.

In baseball, we don't let kids take leads off of first base, we don't have them throw from major league mounds because it's not a proper progression.

In soccer, they start out with 3v3 - no goalie and eventually progress to 11v11.

Developing skills against zones...

Yes, but you need to develop these skills when the kids are ready. Developmentally, kids still have problems understanding spacing relationships. Don Kelbick once said they have trouble remembering tying their shoes and now expect them to beat a zone.

They can hardly pass, dribble, and shoot. It's hard enough to teach them to do these things without a defense. Adding a man to man defense makes it more difficult, not adding a zone defense just turns it into garbage basketball that nobody is reaping benefits from. Kids chucking up shots (probably make 1 out of 10) and score 85% of their points off of offensive rebounds.

Sorry... now adding a zone turns into garbage basketball...

Sorry Goilfman..... pressing at this age will get you a lot of Ws but it wont help teach the kids how to play the game. IF you want Ws, press all over the court and turn the game in to garbage as Joe said. Kids at that age cant handle it... they can hardly pass and catch the ball let alone beat a trap.
You are right on regarding the fundamentals and yes, the kids will play to win, thats fine... but lets make the game right for their age group. They will keep score even if there is no scoreboard.... but its what the coaches focus on that makes the difference

Joe has made some great points here.

Good stuff. Please help me understand some points on why zones are advanced vs MtoM. Once I establish that and get buy in there, I expect them to support starting with the basics first as that is pretty standard and easy to understand. I guess, the league has done that to some extent if you go back to our current progression…..it is just a bit too fast.

Yes, 10’ goals and full sized ball and court are way too much for all but a few of our 10 year olds.
Thanks again for all the input.

I think what Golfman was trying to get across was that in order to play a GOOD ZONE.... you need to have good m2m fundamentals - or you won't understand how to defend someone.

Learning the m2m fundamentals takes time and the younger they are the more difficult it is to comprehend...... Stick to your guns... and like I said, invite them to come to this site and see what the coaches have to say - let them ask all the questions and propose any scenario they want.