5 out motion "cutters" offense

This thread is an attempt to consolidate questions related to the cutters offense described at http://www.breakthroughbasketball.com/offense/cutters.html.

Two other threads include questions on this offense
* viewtopic.php?f=48&t=158 (Making the first pass)
* viewtopic.php?f=48&t=78 (Easy offense)

Now to add to the questions!

We've been doing 5 on 0 (dummy offense) for 5-10 minutes a practice and they seem to get it pretty well except the player filling the cutters spot will usually leave too early, so that he's standing there by the time the player with the ball looks back. Any drill suggestions for this?

Also, I'm not sure who fills the cutter's spot if the player filling the spot back cuts. Let's say the point passes to the rt wing and basket cuts. The left wing starts to fill the point but back cuts instead. Should the player with the ball (on the right wing) dribble to the point to balance the floor?

Finally do you have any suggestions for building up to 5 on 5 (i.e., the game). We have 8 players on our team and I tried 4 on 4 at practice, but of course they mostly forgot what they were supposed to do and dribbled around (finally free to play!). Should I start with 2 on 2, 5 on 3, ...?

Greg,

While the concepts behind the 5 Out Motion offense are simple, it has taken me a couple of weeks to get my boys to run it. I was beginning to think it was hopeless. And then in our last game on Sunday--they actually ran it pretty good. Still a lot of room for improvement in the patience area. There is a definite tendency to try to force the pass to the 1st person that cuts.

But my advice would be to just stick with it. If you have 8 players, I think I would put 5 on offense and the other 3 players (plus 2 coaches/parents) on defense. Tell the defense not to play too hard at first, and challenge the offense to pass several times before taking a shot.

Great idea, Greg.

To prevent players from moving too early, Rule 3 - Cut Only When You Pass The Ball or when the player with the ball is looking at you. That means that the offensive player getting ready to fill the top spot should not cut until the passer is looking at them. This should be the same time that the initial cutter is starting to clear the lane. When it comes to filling the spot, I think it's better to be late than early. Similar concept when it comes to running off of screens.

For floor balance, the player could dribble to the top of the key for floor balance, but I don't think that is needed unless you need to dribble to prevent a 5-second call. The player who orginally started at the baseline should be filling the spot at the top of the key. If there was not a 5-second call violation, the player with the ball could stand on the wing as the players on the left side of the court continuously rotate through and make basket cuts.

Another tip for the cutter filling the spot, I like them to cut to a spot a few feet inside of the 3-point line. I don't think I recommended that in the original article. That way, if the defense is overplaying, they can cut backdoor. If they are not overplaying, they can cut to the 3-point line area to get the ball.

I think 2 on 2 and 3 on 3 are great tools to teach offense concepts. You could play games like:
- After every pass, use a basket cut.
- Automatic turnover, if the player does not get into a triple threat position when catching the ball.
- After every pass, you have to screen away from the ball
- Ball screens only.
- No dribble.

You wouldn't want to do this all at once. Only introduce the new games as you teach the new concepts.

Be creative. I'm sure you could think of more games to teach concepts.

Remember, the cutters offense is just a beginning step with the youth players. Let them play and don't place too many rules on them, because they turn into robots running a pattern rather than reacting to the defense. Here are some more tips on running a youth motion offense: http://www.breakthroughbasketball.com/offense/motion-offense-youth-basketball.html

To prevent players from moving too early, Rule 3 - Cut Only When You Pass The Ball or when the player with the ball is looking at you. That means that the offensive player getting ready to fill the top spot should not cut until the passer is looking at them. This should be the same time that the initial cutter is starting to clear the lane. When it comes to filling the spot, I think it's better to be late than early. Similar concept when it comes to running off of screens.

Yeah, they're good on rules 1 and 2, but me just "saying" rule #3 hasn't made it happen yet. Only two practices though. Patience!

Another tip for the cutter filling the spot, I like them to cut to a spot a few feet inside of the 3-point line. I don't think I recommended that in the original article. That way, if the defense is overplaying, they can cut backdoor. If they are not overplaying, they can cut to the 3-point line area to get the ball.

The kids actually figure this out on their own. I practiced them filling the point and choosing whether or not to back cut or not with a defender on them (I was passing from the wing). They loved to back cut (because they'd get to lay it up) and started to always cut that way even if they were filling the point, creating separation for the pass. It's fun to watch them figure it out on their own.

I think 2 on 2 and 3 on 3 are great tools to teach offense concepts. You could play games like:
- After every pass, use a basket cut.
- Automatic turnover, if the player does not get into a triple threat position when catching the ball.
- After every pass, you have to screen away from the ball
- Ball screens only.
- No dribble.

Great ideas. I think we'll start with triple threat. They tend to turn their backs to the basket to avoid losing the ball instead of creating space by being a threat to dribble or shoot. A lot of them are used to playing one on one and backing in the defender.

Remember, the cutters offense is just a beginning step with the youth players. Let them play and don't place too many rules on them, because they turn into robots running a pattern rather than reacting to the defense. Here are some more tips on running a youth motion offense: http://www.breakthroughbasketball.com/offense/motion-offense-youth-basketball.html

Understood! A quote I like from the distance running world is "I'm trying to get you to feel kung fu, not think it."

(PS: Sorry for the markup, but I can't figure out how to turn BBCode on. It says it's on by default in my profile, but when I post it says "Options: BBCode is OFF")

I noticed some savvy users trying to use the quotes and BBcode. I think I enabled it for the entire forum. Let me know if it starts working now on other posts. Seemed to work on this one.

First game against the zone. We hung in there the first half in were down only 7-8 with some good (man-to-man!) defense and rebounding. They passed the ball around and you'd recognize it as a motion if you saw it, which was great, but they didn't take the opportunities they had to drive, especially from the wing, which was open. I think I encouraged them to drive a little too much and lots of head down into the teeth of the zone leading to turnovers and points in the second half. We got crushed.

We've only had 4 practices (3 before break and one this week), so I didn't get as far as what to do against a zone. I'm planning to have them post up at the mid-post on each cut, but one thing I'm wondering about is what the passer does if somehow he makes that pass. Does he stay where he is as an outlet. I'm also wondering where the scoring comes from. I'm guessing the guy posting probably won't be able to turn and score. Should I teach them to look for the guy filling the point who should have an open lane?

Greg,

I think you'll probably need to experiment to find out what works. It depends on the type of players you have, etc. If I remember right these were pretty young kids and that was why you wanted a simple offense?

When the ball is entered into the post, I would suggest the passer simply finds the open spot. That's it. If the ball gets entered inside you would hope to have a good chance for an inside shot or a kick out to an open outside shot.

I honestly did not have great success with cutters against zone. I think part of it was my lack of vision at that time. It ran that several years ago. I actually had another offense I used against zone and unfortunately we ran the zone offense a lot because we usually tore up the other teams M2M with the cutters offense. It would not take long for them to give up and just go to zone D. I was not very good at zone offense at the time.

You could also try maintaining your rules when the ball is entered in the post. The passer cuts to the basket. The player might be open or open things up for other players. Experiment and see what happens. And keep teaching those fundamentals. :)

We ran an Open Post offense called Double Up for many years and had a lot of success with it. Its not on this site but you can find it on Coaches Clipboard.

Your kids need to know how to read the defense and make the proper cut ... and if things get messed up they only have to fill the one spot that is empty... yes it takes some practice but IF your kids can handle the ball, you can do very well with this.

See if you can get a couple of kids that are willing to come in and play some defense for you and the team... that will help the kids understand the offense better, regardless of what offense you are running.

I'm debating whether to just modify the cutters with the cutter stopping at the mid-post or short corner or just going to a 4-out 1-in with basically the same rules, but the post guy going from mid-post to mid-post following the ball.

Don Kelbick talks about the power of the short corner position against a zone. I have to admit that I'm not getting it. What is it that a guy with the ball there can do that makes it so powerful? Is it that he's in a good position to score or to make a pass. If so, what pass?

Like I said, I'm thinking of going to a 4-out 1-in against the zone. We have a very tall team anyway, so maybe the 5-out wasn't the best idea anyway. (I was thinking more of trying to teach the kids the same set of skills -- this is 6th grade.) One guy would basically going mid-post to mid-post. The other guys would still cut through after a pass and fill spots, but I'd add a rule that if you can't pass to the guy in the post, they should reverse the ball as quickly as possible.

If I did this, I don't know where to have the guy passer exit though after the pass to the mid-post. The ball side baseline would be open, but we'd end up just rotating the corner and the wing on the ball side. They could exit on the weak side short corner and we could look to reverse the ball to them.

I don't know. I hate to abandon the cutters so quickly. I'm just having trouble envisioning it working against the zone. Maybe just having them cut to the mid-post could have the same effect but it seems like it takes to long to reverse the ball with each player looking for the cutter before passing. I don't see us making that pass to the mid-post since the defense will overreact and collapse on the cutter, but this will leave the weak side open.

Thanks for listening :-)

As for using the short corners... their is a few options...

1- a shot / shot fake and take it to the hole
2- passing to someone from the high post diving to the basket - we would get this several times a game.
3- opposite diagonal... the elbow or opposite wing depending on the rotations the D uses. This we found to be open a lot.
4- kick it out to the near wing if they double team you from there

These are things we did utilizing the short corners... and remember, every time you get the ball inside the D has to adjust and sink which should allow you to get a better look from the perimter.

Coach Sar wrote:As for using the short corners... their is a few options...
1- a shot / shot fake and take it to the hole

Thanks for the response. Part of what confuses me is that Don said the guy in the short corner should be behind the basket with his heels on the baseline, which means there wouldn't be a shot. Maybe I misunderstood.

I guess that was Don's philosophy... we wanted our guy to have a look at the basket IF he was a shooter.... I understand where he is coming from... IF he is behind the basket.. the defenders have to turn their heads to find him... often... and we did that also... we just wanted him to receive the ball a little further out so he had a look at the basket... be a scoring threat.

The good thing about cutters is that you can always use it as a secondary offense, delay offense, situational offense, etc. It's pretty versatile and easy to use against M2M.

To reinforce what Coach Sars mentioned about short corner, we would enter the ball into short corner, then all the defensive players would turn their heads because the short corner is behind all them, then the player at the high post/free throw line would cut to the rim, receive the pass and dunk (or lay up for 6th graders). It was very effective. Now you can't just rely on that, but incorporating the short corner into your zone offense is generally a good idea.

Jeff, thanks for the reply. What kind of rule do you put in to get a guy in the short corner?

Greg - It depends on my players, the types of zones I see, and how I often I see them.

If I don't see zone very often and my players can handle much, I just say the middle guy dives to the basket every time the ball is caught in short corner.

I generally don't set or change any rules. Instead I drill the type of cut I want a few times and then show them how it works on controlled practice (I might stop play and say, hey next time the ball goes here, this guy should look for the cut). Then it will naturally happen on occasion and they're not predictable robots. And the only real rule is something more like... "don't stand for more than 2 seconds -- or if you pass cut -- etc"

There are so many ways to attack a zone. You need to find what works for you. Most of my success came with a patterned zone offense that attacked the gaps and attacked the back side of the zone and reversed the ball. I'm not coaching at the moment and not sure if I'd use that today. I'd probably stick with motion but I suppose it depends on my team.

If you run a motion offense here are more ideas for rules for you to consider:

- If you see zone, put players in the gaps, so your primary spacing is to put people in gaps. So for example, instead of always running a 5-out or 3 out 2 in, put players in the gaps of what ever zone they are running. Against a 2-3 zone, you could have 1-2-2 formation (basically a 3 out 2 in). Against a 1-2-2 zone, you could have a 2-1-2 formation. Or to simplify you could just always use odd man front against 2-3 zone and even man front against 1-2-2 or 1-3-1. There are lots of different zone offense formation but they almost always put players in the gaps. And they often put players in the middle and short corner. Choose what you feel comfortable with.

- If you don't see a huge gap, reverse the ball.

- If you're covered, dribble at a perimeter player and shallow cut for the reversal.

- The the middle is not occupied by a team mate, flash middle.

- If the short corner is not occupied by a team mate, flash short corner.

- If your teammate cuts, follow him/her to fill the gap and look for the ball.

- If you're in the corner or post area, move behind the zone and cut to the open spot from the back of the zone.

- Put your best ballhander and play maker in the middle of the zone. This person does not have to be tall. If your best playmaker is your shortest player, put him in the middle. When ever this person catches the ball, tell them to create. This player will cause havoc on the bigger slower player in the middle trying to guard. Make plays - shoot, dribble, drive, pass, find the team mate. A great player is tough to stop in that spot.

First, I have to thank you guys so much for indulging me. I really appreciate the responses and if I had it to do over again, I'd probably have done things differently. Right now I'm trying to figure out how to make the fewest modifications and still make this work against a zone. About 5 of the 8 guys could remember rule 1 (pass and basket cut), so I'm a little leery of introducing another set.



I know this isn't optimum, but here's what I'm thinking. I show the kids the holes in the zone between 1, 4, and 5 (picture included because I don't know what to call these positions in the zone) and the 2, 3, and 5. I tell them the object is to get the ball in those gaps. If you get the ball there either with a dribble or a pass then take a jump shot or pass (quickly!). Look to pass to the weak side which should be wide open. The weak side wing or short corner can step into the gap. If you get the ball on the wing and can't make the pass look to reverse. The opposite wing or short corner should be ready to fill to the hole on the other side. To keep things moving, the pass and cut rule would basically be the same, but tell them to cut and fill a gap in the zone where they can get a pass and then exit to the open short corner.

Do you think this is worth pursuing or do you think I should just say, "OK. We've practiced our man to man offense. Now let's work on a new zone offense." If everyone plays zone as I suspect then that would probably be our offense the rest of the year.

I heard a college coach say this about attacking zones... "it's not rocket science... put em where they aint!"

Keep things simple, put your kids in the gaps (if you want to use what you are doing now, tell them to cut and fill that gap) make sure they are in passing lanes. Since I am not familiar enough with that offense I cant tell you if that was going to work... but we had a separate zone offense from our m2m stuff.

JMO
Ken

Greg - Both methods will work. It's just what you feel comfortable and prefer. It's not "what" you run but "how" you run it. There are so many different systems and offenses out there. Frankly, they pretty much all work and can win championships if run properly.

So go with something you think you can teach successfully and what you think will be best for your players development (allows you to spend time on fundamentals, etc).

Jeff

Thanks for all the help. I did the experimental approach on Monday scrimmaging ourselves -- had to teach them what a 2-3 zone was, so we could play against it.

I used an analogy that I thought worked pretty well. We played a down of half court football with a zone coverage and asked one of the kids to go out for a pass. He instinctively slanted to the middle to the soft spot in the zone and I threw him a pass. I said when somebody catches the basketball he's the qb and the ball has been snapped. Your job is to find those soft spots. They seemed to get it.

We scrimmaged and watching them I settled on a 3 out 2 in, which I actually used last year. It wasn't too confusing I think and it's better suited to my players. The post players moved between gaps in the zone (I pointed out the most likely spots) and perimeter players do the same cut and replace on the perimeter as before. I emphasized reversing the ball and looking to the weak side and tried to let them figure it out in the scrimmage.

http://www.basketballalberta.ca/clientuploads/ZoneAttack_MacKay_Mike.pdf

I just wanted to share the above link. Going through this last practice made a huge difference in my kids' understanding of how to play versus a zone and helped us to a big win today, getting very good shots against a zone defense. The philosophy of teaching concepts and letting them play also fits in well with the motion offense approach.