A Fine Mess

Hello Everyone,

First, I want to say THANK YOU for building such a great resource for coaches. I am very grateful.

I am a first-time coach for my son's 6th-7th grade school team. I played Jr High and High School basketball. Aside from my willingness to do it, I am not qualified to coach. Regardless, I have leapt into it, and really do enjoy the coaches' life. Staying up all night thinking about tomorrow's plan is fun!

My problem is the size of the team. We only have 7 players, and that's only if none of them quit (our best player may quit because I explained to him that while we will incorporate his abilities, he's going to have to paly where the team most needs him. I'm not having a problem standing up when it comes time to make the hard coaching call. the team's interests override player interests.

My main concern is game fatigue. We have 20 minute halves, and I'm fairly certain we don't have enough of a bench to substitute effectively when players need breathers.

I'm looking for advice on this subject. Frankly, I remember playing a lot, but don't remember being tired. Can kids hack playing a full game? How can I most effectively substitute players when my bench is only two players?

denglish2 wrote:My problem is the size of the team. We only have 7 players, and that's only if none of them quit (our best player may quit because I explained to him that while we will incorporate his abilities, he's going to have to paly where the team most needs him. I'm not having a problem standing up when it comes time to make the hard coaching call. the team's interests override player interests.

I don't know what offense you are running... but maybe you can give this kid a little taste of the position he wants to play? I had a 6'7 center one year that wanted to shoot 3s....... I put in an option on one of our plays where he stepped out to shoot a 3. We ran it in practice, but never ran it in a game, He was happy. One year I helped a 7th grade coach and his tallest player wanted to play on the wing... coach wanted him to play center. He was NOT very good in the post and he played very well on the wing. So, just give this some thought as to how you can do what is best for this team while giving him something to make him happy... if only for a few minutes. Talk to him about how important he is to the team, you have to SELL him on the team concept.

denglish2 wrote:My main concern is game fatigue. We have 20 minute halves, and I'm fairly certain we don't have enough of a bench to substitute effectively when players need breathers.

Think of how hockey teams sub.... you can make your first sub 3 mins into the game, he is playing with 4 starters. Now you can sub the other kid in another minute... just keep rotating. Make yourself a cheat sheet for substitutions so its easier to deal with. Maybe have another parent help you with that?

Hard to believe that 7th graders cant handle that, but it is what it is.... so, plan your practices wisely. Run a couple of hard drills where they really have to work hard and then one easy one... like shooting. Do this throughout your entire practice. I stopped running for conditioning after a couple of yeasrs, waste of time.... but the kids did have to push themselves. AND, USE YOUR TIME - OUTS WISELY.

I played with 5-7 players for 24 games our 8th grade season (last year). I had 8, one got injured early on and was out for the season. We'd get down to 5-7 in games because someone would get injured or sick. Had two games where only 5 were available and ended up playing with 4 at the end of game because one fouled out. It can be done and there are pro's and con's. Played 1/3 of our games with 5 players only. Won a few, lost most.

Pro's: playing time, more experience, they learn how to manage fouls, tighter team work

Con's: hard to press, people tend to come out more often, possible foul trouble with little wiggle room on subs

Personally, I wouldn't play unless I had at least 8 players committed.

Thanks for the replies folks, much appreciated.

We're running a 3-2 motion, with a couple of scripted plays. Trying to let them ad-lib motion turns into playground ball, so I'm hoping the plays will give some structure that they can build some ad-hoc play from moving forward- we need to get the idea of position discipline down pat.

My best player is also the tallest, so I think I need him in the post. Knowing this would be unpopular, I designed some plays to get him outside, but unfortunately when I passed out the plays on Friday he wasn't there. Understand on the sell piece, and I'll be doing it.

I like the rotating players thing. I'm going to need to read up on how to sub. Any suggestions on resources? I'll need to start from square one: how to arrange subs with the officials, etc.

Check this out -

http://www.milfordrecreation.com/documents/player_rotation_form.pdf

The more I think about this, my perspective is a bit different because our team was playing in two leagues last year at the same time. A lot of times we were looking at 4-5 games per week with at least 1 double header. Although, you mentioned your league will have 20 minute halves and that can be pretty grueling with only 7 players.

I'm betting you won't have to worry about how you're going to sub with only 7 players. Kids will get tired and you'll be able to spot that, plus fouls will play a part in this whole deal. If a kid snags two right off the bat, you may have to sit them to conserve fouls.

I'd be more apt to sub based on what I'm seeing on the court vs. a predetermined rotation. Unless you have some sort of play-time rule, I think you'll be fine with playing time for each player since you only have 7 players.

Frankly, I think you are in heaven. Only 7 players. To me that's ideal - no complaints about playing time. With 20 min. halves, I assume it is a running clock. So there will only be 10-15 min. of actual playing time. Kids want to play. They won't get tired.

As for rotation, you'll figure it out based on minutes, fouls, matchups, etc.

As for your best player. Let him play. Don't just stick him down low. Your kids may have trouble getting him the ball. Let him handle the ball and play on the perimeter. I "big man" who can shoot from outside is dangerous.

Good luck.

Thanks for the input golfman.

I've taken the advice to heart, and moved the main player to 02. He is happy, and another kid is stepping into the post position with zeal, so everyone is happy, and we have our impact player in a more "dynamic" spot. I'm also trying to keep him interested by asking him to be our shot caller on the court- to recognize things and get folks to adjust defensively or reset offensively.

Embarrassingly, my concern with fatigue was more a symptom of not being intimate with the little things such as knowing one can make unlimited substitutions. If there's a resource out there that talks about the little things- things that a new coach will overlook, I would be grateful for a push to it.

Now our big challenge is "chucking". In practice, they'll throw the ball at the hoop in all kinds of situations that just make one want to bang their head. I keep hammering at them that when they're off balance they should only shoot as a last resort, and drill them on mid-range set shots, but the playground mentality and the glory of being the 3 point sniper is strong in them...

I think the biggest handicap of only having 7 players is not being able to go 5 v 5 to simulate games and the importance of staying in position. Our defensive drills are weak- trying to incorporate a shell drill when there aren't enough people to pass around was a disaster. Mostly I'm just doing 1 v1 drills and trying to teach good man to man skills; kinda lost there too.

Having fun...:)

Think of a lot of 3 on 3 work then. You can play ball side / help side with that too.

Think of a point guard and 2 wings... ball is at the point - semi pressure on the ball, both wing defenders are in denial but will let the pass go ( if you play denial, otherwise they can sag a bit. PASS to a wing.... that defender is on the ball then, point defender jumps to the ball - on/up the line and the weak side defender jumps to the help line.

I hope this is clear.

denglish2 wrote:Now our big challenge is "chucking". In practice, they'll throw the ball at the hoop in all kinds of situations that just make one want to bang their head. I keep hammering at them that when they're off balance they should only shoot as a last resort, and drill them on mid-range set shots, but the playground mentality and the glory of being the 3 point sniper is strong in them...

Remember, these are young kids and are still learning the game. YOU have to sell them on your philosophy and how you want them to play. Selling them on what IS and what ISN'T a good shot. Try to get them to understand how important it is to get a GOOD shot, not some THROW at the basket.

denglish2 wrote:I think the biggest handicap of only having 7 players is not being able to go 5 v 5 to simulate games and the importance of staying in position. Our defensive drills are weak- trying to incorporate a shell drill when there aren't enough people to pass around was a disaster. Mostly I'm just doing 1 v1 drills and trying to teach good man to man skills; kinda lost there too.

As for defensive drills 0 look at this page
http://www.breakthroughbasketball.com/drills/basketballdrills.html#defense-drills

Think of 1 on 1 zig zag
Point to wing defense
Point wing and post
Deny the flash cutters
The helpside dreill I just described

* Zig - zag defense:

1 on 1, the idea of the drill is to make the player with the ball change directions without getting beat.... NO reaching, play with your feet. This is done full court and it goes from sideline to the free throw lane line, the offense must stay between those lines.

* Point / Wing

Player with the ball at the point, the other player on the wing. To show your players what the LINE for defense is ( IF you are playing on/up the line) roll the ball from the point to the wing. Explain that when they go for a deflection it will be with the near hand to the ball. UP the line is just that... move the wing defender towards the ball so he can help out if the point player beats his man. In the beginning just have them pass the ball, NO deflections. You just want to make sure that they are in the right position.

Once you allow the wing player to move, the wing defender has to adjust his position also.

* Point, Wing and Post ( very important to keep the ball out of the post )

Point and wing are set up the same, but now you add a post player with a defender. The post defender is on/up the line also, when the ball goes to the wing, post defender slides in front of the offensive player. ( IF you decide to dead front the post. ) OR you can 3/4 deny. For the sake of the drill, the D lets the wing player pass the ball into the post but the post defender steps in front for the steal or deflection.

IF you have any questions, feel free to ask, I will try and clairy the situation There are a couple of more things but I think this is a good start for you. Closing out and denying cutters would be next. Closing out would be more important for your age group I would thinik.

"Chucking" is certainly a problem at that age. You have to stress your offensive philosophy of looking for a "GOOD" shot, not just any shot.

And certainly practicing with 7 can be a challenge. Looks for older brothers/sisters, moms, and dads to fill in. The shell drill is easy for parents to step in (as long as they can pass and catch :)).

I would also look to run a lot of off balanced stuff -- 1 less on defense than offense. I'd put 4 on offense and 3 on defense. Your offense should be forced to find the open man for the good shot and your defense will be top notch come game time.

denglish2 wrote:
I think the biggest handicap of only having 7 players is not being able to go 5 v 5 to simulate games and the importance of staying in position. Our defensive drills are weak- trying to incorporate a shell drill when there aren't enough people to pass around was a disaster. Mostly I'm just doing 1 v1 drills and trying to teach good man to man skills; kinda lost there too.

Having fun...:)

Also, make sure you teach them "help" defense. One problem at this age level they will stay "stuck" to their man while the ball is driven in for a layup. The unbalanced 4 on 3 will help with that.

Coach Sars: Are you suggesting we now put hockey boards in basketball gyms and change on the fly, remember I played hockey, and it aint gonna work. In hockey, there is very little stoppage in play and you dont require a time out or a change of possession to get in a sub. Im just playing with you my friend your advice as always is sound, I just dont know how to respond to this particular topic...Your friend Coach Mac.

As long as there isn't any cross checking, it should be fine LOL

Nice to have you back on board Mac.

Howdy Folks,

You've been so kind in your advice I thought I'd give you an update. We lost our first two games by a total of 5 points. I made some adjustments to the line up, and we won our third game (against what I perceive to be equitable opponents to the ones who beat us) by 14 points. The change in line-up reduced our turnovers and increased opponent turnover considerably.

My most notorious "practice chucker" is 4-7 from the 3 point line, and a wicked ball-stealer. *grinning* He's still firing from the chest, but I'm not sure he's strong enough to shoot over the head yet.

The 4-3 Offense/Defense drill has really helped. They're ball hawks, and at this level, it seems to be quite profitable. I'm just telling the guys to find their man and stick to him like glue for the games- no complicated shifts- just a "beat your man" philosophy. Our most talented player has taken upon himself to cover the lanes against opponent drives, and its working.

The advice to move my best guy to a wing has worked out great. He's happy and scoring well, and the "great attitude, needs skill" player on the team has stepped into the post position with gusto.

Going forward, I need to work the guys more in motion offense and our set plays. They seem to forget in the heat of action, so before our win I just told the posts to screen whenever a wing has a ball. These baby steps paid off.

Thanks again for what you guys do. Having stepped forward to coach (or everyone else stepping backward) was brand new to me, and this site has made me many times more effective that I would have been otherwise. Our team is very grateful.

denglish2 wrote:My most notorious "practice chucker" is 4-7 from the 3 point line, and a wicked ball-stealer. *grinning* He's still firing from the chest, but I'm not sure he's strong enough to shoot over the head yet.

A lot of this for him might be the strenght issue. Be patient... and work on his form - BEEF - That to will come to pass and in the long run, he will be a better player for it as he gets older... ( shooting fundamentaly sound ) IF he wants to play at the next level.

By the way, congratulations on the W. Its always nice to get one here and there.... paybacks huh!!

denglish2 wrote:Going forward, I need to work the guys more in motion offense and our set plays. They seem to forget in the heat of action, so before our win I just told the posts to screen whenever a wing has a ball. These baby steps paid off.

I would spend more time on the fundamentals and motion and not so much on sets... sets teaches just that... how to run a set. Nothing wrong with having 1, maybe 2 for a special situation. That too will pay off for them as they get older. Keep up the good work guys.... have fun.

I need some advice now, I feel like I'm riding a wild horse.

We've won our last 3 games by a total of 55 points. The vast majority of points is being scored by my advanced player. The team mantra in practice is "no shot, no shoot, no pass, no pass", and its really limited the turnovers. I've had to be real hard to get them to make game passes in practice, but its paying off.

The Headmaster of the school told me yesterday how important our success has been to the school spirit. We're not known for our athletic output.

Here's where it gets hard. As you know I have 7 players. If I had kids beating down the door this would be an easy question. I've had issues in practice where there is back talk, and apathetic movement, and distracting behavior. I had a team meeting, gave everyone a verbal warning, and then introduced an escalating discipline plan that involves loss of game time and eventual expulsion from the team.

It worked for one day. The biggest problem is my star player. The drills are "beneath him", and he won't perform. He's so lazy during these drills that he's actually showing kids the wrong way to do things. The attitude is contagious, and before I know it, I've got 5 kids acting like monkeys, and two kids trying to learn the best they can.

I want the team to be successful, and I have no player reserve to draw from. I've been thinking about sitting him (and the other problems) out of practices when they don't put out, and even in games.

I know the right thing to do is put them on the escalating tiers of discipline, but we risk dissolving the team, and taking out our most important game weapon. I am torn between knowing that ultimately this is the right thing to do and the feeling that that it would be betraying the kids that really do put out in practice, and who's only basketball experience may be this one.

Do I ride it out and do my best to not kill them, take the wins and muddle through the practices with half the team sitting out? Or do I stick to the coaching guns and risk having no team at the end of the process and before the end of the season?

his is a tough call, welcome to the world of coaching! I know this is easy for me to say this since I am not the one there..... but IF it were me, I would NOT allow 1 or 2 kids to destroy the team.... especially 6/7th graders.

I will give you a couple of examples.

I was a varsity coach so there is a lot of pressure to succeed, but NOT to the point where the tail is going to wag the dog. There is more to the game that winning... its up to you to teach them the difference between right and wrong. IF you don't, how would you like to be their next coach?

One year I had a great shooter, but he was a jerk at the time. He comes off the floor mumbling under his breath about our offense. I told my assistant to take him downstairs to the locker room. At half time I told him to take off his uniform, he is done for the day. After the game I gave him a few choice words about his behavior and what the team has tried to do for him... without ONE negative comment.

Later in the year, he and one other kid cuss out a ref after the game. The ref wanted to report him. I asked him IF he would allow me to handle it. He said yes, when we got back to school, I threw them both off the team for the rest of the year. From that point on, he was a changed kid.... he came back the next year and played well without ONE problem

Example 2 We were playing for the conference championship... were having a morning walk through / workout.... last thing I said was... DO NOT BE LATE TOMORROW. Well, 3 starters come WALKING IN no less, NOT ready to practice ( not dressed ) 40 minutes late..... walking across the floor.... there had to be smoke coming from my head. I told my assistant to get them out of the gym before I do something I would be sorry for. Then I told our manager to take their uniforms out of the bag, they are NOT dressing for the game tonight. The biggest game of the year for us.

My assistant asked me why no uniforms... I said that this way I wouldn't be tempted to play them if we were close. The subs played well once they got their nerves under control and we lost a close game. One of their kids came by our bench and gave me this look, like what's with them? I just shrugged my shoulders.

After the game, their AD and several parents came over to me and said, we have a lot of respect for you. We know what you did and we know that had to be hard to do.

I had a couple of sayings that I used with reporters.... so, whatever you do, "Don't let the tail wag the dog!" And " IF they want it their way, let them go to Burger King. "

You could start by throwing them all out of practice for one day.... and if that doesn't work..... bench your best player for the enxt game, the one causing the problems. JMO

I'm not one to sugar-coat things. If I'm getting unacceptable behavior from a player, they will know about it. And they'll hear from me in a louder tone than they are probably wanting to hear.

If you've put it out there as team policy that these behaviors can result in lost playing time and his behavior has not improved with the "lesser" punishment, I would bench him for at least one game. If it's his actions that are leading to the other players following suit and misbehaving during practice, then I'd make him the example. Let the other kids play. If they have a poor outing, I'd straight up let them know that if they want to continue to be sheep and follow the bad examples set by our "star" player, then they will not improve as players and they will continue to have poor showings on the court. Or they can be their own person, put in the work and improve themselves.

If the team has a poor showing without the "star" player, I'd tell him he's got a decision to make. He is a leader on the team obviously. He can continue to act the way he's acted and lead the team down this path of poor showings and his rear end on the bench or he can step up as a true leader, show the proper behavior and lead the team down a path of success. His choice. If the team plays well without him, then you tell him he can continue to act like a baby in practice because the rest of the kids are ready to play without him. Or he can remove his head from his hindquarters and contribute to the team's success.

There are probably tons of ways to handle this. But I'd probably go about it this way.....that's just me. I don't mind much hearing from the overbearing parents who think you're doing an awful job or have outlandish complaints. They are adults and I'm not going to try to change them. But when kids are acting this disrespectful and I've been charged with coaching them, then I'm going to do whatever I can to get their actions straight before it's too late.

Coach Sar wrote:I had a couple of sayings that I used with reporters.... so, whatever you do, "Don't let the tail wag the dog!" And " IF they want it their way, let them go to Burger King. "

Ha! Nice.

This season has provided some interesting coaching experience for you. As coaches, that's usually how it goes. You run across a few situations that leave a bad taste in your mouth and it has a tendency to influence your coaching philosophy the next time around. I've found that by establishing a simple coaching philosophy (e.g. you can expect A, B, C, from me, I expect E, F, G from you, and I will not tolerate X, Y, Z) and clearly communicating that philosophy to the players and parents before the season starts has saved me countless headaches down the road. Something to remember next time around on this merry go round.

Running with 7 players and not really having a history with them, it makes sense something like this could happen. 20/20 hindsight at this point, but I'd plant a mental flag about this situation and make sure the higher powers at your school help get you more players before the next season rolls around. You can run camps, skill sessions, etc. Just some food for thought if you plan on sticking with these folks.

Easy for us to tell you what the we'd do, but like Coach Sar mentioned we're not in the middle of this "fine mess" dealing with the repercussions of decisions. Before making any decisions, I'd get with the next person up the chain of command if you have one available. It's a lot easier to make a tough decision like sitting a kid if you have the support of someone higher up. Especially since this is your first year coaching.

I'm a big life lesson coach. My kids probably got sick of all my metaphors about how basketball relates to situations in life. It's true though, but that's for another thread. I'm more in the camp of "do the right thing" and use this as an opportunity to teach a life lesson to these kids. Quite frankly, the kid with the attitude needs to sit out. Kids don't like that. If he quits, he quits. Again though, I'd try to get some support from a higher up.