This Is One Nervous Coach!!!!

So we are wrapping up our rec league season this Saturday. We play in a 3rd/4th grade boys division and our team has all 3rd graders on it. We are NOT an all-star team but we're taking the roughly same team to post-season tournaments and we've been placed in the 4th grade division (since they don't have a 3rd grae division). YIKES!!!!!

My team only knows the rules of the rec league and this will be their 1st tournament.
Our rec league allows:
1 - M2M defense only - No Zone allowed
2 - No double teams/trapping allowed
3 - Each defender picking their man up after at half-court (so if we get a rebound the "D" immediately gets back (no pressure)

The Tournament allows:
1 - M2M or Zone
2 - Full court press in the last 3 minutes of game/OT.
3 - Half Court trapping/double teams allowed

Since we are going against all 4th graders, I feel that we should go to a zone defense because we faced 4th graders in the rec league and it was mismatch galore!!!! Is this the right move? We have 5 practices until our 1st tournament and I'm not sure which zone to implement. I like the idea of going M2M but I think the teams we'll be facing will have more overall talent and our team will not be able to defend effectively.

If we go to zone defense, which zone would work the best? We not big at all but we do have some quickness and speed.

Thanks for your feedback!

Brent -

IF this was me, I would stick to my m2m and work a lot on getting to the HELP LINE which makes your man just like a zone defense.... You have played man all year long, why change now? Your kids might not get what you try to teach them in a few practices... fine tune what you have.

I would be more concerned about the trapping and playing vs zones.... thats where I would spend the majority of my time.... Good luck.

They've actually played M2M for the last 3 years so i was hoping we could continue but my team has changed each year so I haven't been able to develop the help defense for ALL my players yet as about half of them can do it effectively.

We also have a problem with spacing out. Meaning the boys guard their man great and then a few times down the court, they'd just space out and not remember - which this year has resulted in alot of points scored.

I am concerned about our offense vs zone or worse yet, the box and 1 type defenses.

There's alot to prioritize in such few practices.

Thanks Coach!

Just read your question. Interested in seeing how you did. I've been there and at this age the 2-3 zone is the best way to compete wih older or bigger players. You can also use a 3-2 or 1-2-2 zone to cover good shooters from the perimeter. These defenses are easy to teach in the basic form and kids catch on really fast. The 1-3-1 cuts down on perimeter shooting, but can be vulnerable in the post. You don't have to teach the complicated rotations at this age. Just make sure they move with the pass and cover their area. There are simple press breaks and set plays you can run aginst your opponents zone defenses and traps. There is a new website basketballcoachingbooklets.com that was started to help new and experienced coaches with specific topics. These booklets cover many problem areas that you will encounter. They are very easy to use and have had good feedback. The website is new and you can make suggestions about topics that you would like to see in the future.

If you really want your players to develop, put them in a situation where they have to learn how to play M2M and guard faster players. I have seen a lot of players play beyond their abilities simply because they played against the best and were forced to adapt. There is nothing wrong with playing a little zone here and there, as long as your primary defense is man with your players.
http://www.breakthroughbasketball.com/defense/age.html

Now I don't suggest getting blown out in every game for the entire year, but if you want to develop some serious athletes, have a kids guard a bigger and faster player full court one on one for a couple years. Just another viewpoint to consider.

Jeff & Joe also have a great site where you can bring up any question you want.... like the one Jeff posted here -
http://www.breakthroughbasketball.com/defense/age.html

If you look on the left side of THIS PAGE you will find a lot of information also.

Good luck.

Most really good teams will play man to man because they are better, faster, quicker, and bigger than their opponents. Most average teams will play some man to man and some zone defense. Most inexperienced teams will play mostly zone, if they want to compete. I went through the same thing about twenty years ago in Minnesota. We played in a league that allowed only man to man, no double team, no press, and drop back after the defensive rebound and pick up at half court. We were really good with our man to man in this league, because everyone else had to play it. Everyone scored because there was no help defense. The league pretty much outlawed help defense. We were not competitive when the same team played against older competition with different rules. Two problems: they played zone and man to man with help side defense, they were bigger and better than we were.

My college professor, now Sports Psychologist at Duke University, gave me some very good advice for coaching young players. He told me that the coach had to decide whether he wants to win or make all of his players better fundamentally sound basketball players. Develop your own philosophy. If you want to compete and you have inexperienced players, you will probably not play much man to man. This doesn't mean that you don't spend the majority of your practice on man to man offense and defense. Your players should learn to play proper man to man defense. They must practice it so that your team can run a man to man offense and set plays against better players. Something to remember is that a player that does not play man to man well, will probably not be able to play zone defense well either. Most coaches use the zone to hide their weak players or put them in less critical positions. Some teams you face may have good outside shooters. You may have to change it up and play man to man. Another good thing to remember is that someone in your same situation may meet you in a tournament. Don't play any defense just for the sake of playing a certain defense. Play what your players do the best. Experiment in practice and see what works best.
Hope you do well.

In short, we got smoked ... the first 2 games we lost by a combined 98-19. The last game we lost 18-16 (we were up by 2 in the last 3 minutes until my C and PG fouled out & they pressed - which my team had never seen before). The boys improved throughout the tourney which was nice to see them respond. Playing with 1st/2nd/3rd graders vs all 4th graders (who play year round) was eye opening to my boys.

After the 1st game of using 2-3 zone, we switched to M2M defense the last 2 games. Even though the other teams were more talented than us, I've always stressed help defense in prior seasons, so they responded and played better than in the zone. If I were to do it over, I would've spent more time on M2M defense in practice and not worried about zone. Our offense improved each game with us getting more comfortable passing into the high/low post (since our rec league demands M2M we relied on dribble penetration mostly).

The biggest take away I found was they started working together without me shouting out instructions all game. They tried something and if didn't work, they would try something else. By the 3rd game, they were more efficient on both ends of the court.

Thanks for everyone's help. I try to be prepared as best I can but sometimes you have to do it before you truly know what it's like.

Brent -

Congratulations on a great season. Your kids leaned something as you did.... do what you do best, especially at this age. Playing m2m was what you worked on all year long.... thats what got you there. Next time you are in that situation..... and are contemplating zones.... just work a little harder on your help side defense... that almost looks like a zone on the back side, which is what its supposed to do. Do that along with helping and recovering on penetration.

You played very young kids vs older ones.... and in the last game you were right there..... you taught them a lot about how to play the game and by the end - they had figured it out. Isn't that what its all about in that age group?

ALONG WITH HAVING A LOT OF FUN.

If you keep that group together, you will have invaluable experience to build upon. The one thing that can't be taken away from those kids is the experience of playing in a tough tournament and learning. They basically played up a division and that's usually what happens, teams get smoked, especially coming from a rec league environment.

The problem now becomes what direction to head? I've found that once you go over to the "dark-side", it's tough to go back and play rec ball.

I have to throw in my two pennies about keeping it FUN. Pretty easy to get wrapped up in formations, presses, zones, and standings.

Amen to that Rob -

These are young kids... let them have FUN.... playing well is a by product of a sound fundamental team.

I would like to keep this team together for next year but with our rec league, I'll have new kids each year - except for my son and my asst coaches sons. I've coached for 4 years now and have never had the same team.

I will say, for this tournament, I had some really good bb minded kids and after our practices, I was thinking "Holy Cow, so that's how practices are suppose to go." The kids just understood everything the first time I'd show them - which in turn made it fast-paced and fun for everyone - even the parents were amazed.

I'm pretty sure we won't go the tournament route for a year or two, but we won't go back to the rec league we were with either. The YMCA here has a pretty good league that has multiple divisions (based on talent). This league allows to go zone, M2M, press ... but we may not be going against teams that play year-round like we would by going MAYB. I guess this may be something in-between for the kids to have a little more competition and exposure to additional offenses/defenses.

I think you would do your kids a bigger favor staying away from leagues that allow zones and pressing etc. These are young kids that have so much to learn.... You can win a lot by playing zones because not many kids that age can shoot from the perimter..... and pressing/trapping, a recipe fo disaster at this age. JMO

Stay away from zones and presses until they get to the middle school age where the kids are a little bigger and stronger.

Lets see what Jeff & Joe and some of the other coaches have to say.... but this is my opinion.

Coach Sar, I really would like to stay in a league with just M2M, but the only one that would give our town access to their league is the one we've been going to (we're out in the boonies). The biggest issue I have with this league is that they have 1 ref for each game and they let the boys play ... and by that I mean some serious and hard fouls are committed for both teams - and to the point of I had a player of mine that got punched out of another teams frustration (and nothing was done by the ref/coach/league)

The league play is getting really out of control. I'd like to stay there as long as they can address this issue. Otherwise, I guess we'll be learning how to play vs zone defense.

Ok, I get the picture... I wouldn't let my kids play in a game like that either. You might talk to whoever runs that league and whoever assigns the refs... explain to them that it is their job to PROTECT those kids and NOT let the games get out of hand.... that administrator should have a coaches meeting to discuss this type of behavior and let them know it will NOT be tolerated. If they want to play physical, go play football. There is NO excuse for play like this. I don't understand the coaches not taking control of this.

If they cant work things out, I guess you will have to go play some zones.

Sounds like you have fewer options for leagues in your area; I'd definitely opt for the Y vs that league that is more hack and whack. Even though you'll be playing against some zones and presses, it is the lesser of two evils.

Regarding rec leagues that allow traps, zones, and presses at younger ages (3rd - 5th), I think that is a HUGE mistake. Notice I said rec leagues though. The thrust of all the rec leagues I coached in always emphasized things like: "every kid plays", "equal playing time", "working on fundamentals", and the most important one "having FUN", so the kids want to come back and do it again. No tryouts and one practice per week.

Most 3rd-5th graders are still developing basic basketball skills and adding pressure before they are ready is a recipe for disaster. I watched it time and time again, one or two kids would dominant the game and it would turn into a chaotic mess of kids trying to steal the ball and fast break, only to miss 99% of the layups. You had 2-3 kids getting most of the ball touches and the rest watched as everyone just ran up and down the court at a frantic pace. No bueno.

I coached in a rec league environment for 25 seasons of sports (soccer, basketball, flag football) and we had a blast. No superstars, just a great group of kids/parents that enjoyed hanging out together and playing sports. We had goofy team names, great team cheers, made sports vids of seasons, won quite a few games, took on kids that never played a sport in their life, etc. I'm not bragging, but we had the rec thing down and kept a core group together for all those seasons.

The rub came when we decided to venture into the world of competitive basketball at the end of 5th grade. The rec league wasn't cutting it as we were starting to dominate other teams. So, we entered a city-wide tournament and just got smoked. Our team had never played against REAL presses, zones, and traps. It was bad. Our 6th grade year was better, but still really rough. This past year, we ended up doing a lot better, but that's after playing in three competitive leagues and a handful of tournaments - close to 70+ games (no joke).

Knowing what I know now, I probably would've introduced our kids to the competitive world during their 5th grade season. Staying in the rec arena wasn't a viable option and there were no in-between leagues. Coming from all those seasons of a rec mentality and trying to make the transition to the basic competitive world was brutal. I watch teams get crushed all the time in the competitive leagues/tourneys for the same reason we did.

Curious what some of the other coaches think about the timing of when to explore the more competitive side of things?

That's interesting. We have a rec commission here as well (soccer, baseball, basketball) and our town has just enough boys per grade to fill 1 big soccer team and 1 big baseball team but 2 basketball teams (7-8 kids per team). That becomes pretty hairy at times because my assistant coach and I are the only ones who really care to coach - and by that I mean actually taking pride and enjoy seeing the kids grow as player. All the parents want their kids on my team - I'll accept judgement from you coaches on this topic:) - but I don't want 14-16 kids on the bb team. It's too many to coach effectively, so I split the teams up and almost always hear some flack from the parents whose kids are not on my team (which I understand).

It's about the worse position to be in because the basketball league is psuedo rec/compeitive. The league says they are rec and has the "every kid has equal playing time" rules but the atmosphere of the parents and coaches in the league is almost hostile. I told the league if they wanted to calm everyone down they need to hire more than 1 ref per game and stop keeping score. Not sure if they'll go with that format though, so now I may need to let my 4th graders (next year) get into those more competitive leagues and introduce them to presses/traps/zones. Not too happy about it but I don't think I have a choice.

brent - that's a tough situation you're in. I live in a very big city, so we have several options, but the Y seems to be the league of choice for rec basketball around here. Sounds like your rec leaders and refs aren't really into it and that can ruin a program quickly. Do you have to travel to other small towns to play teams? What does the basketball scene look like for 5th/6th graders in your area?

The rec scene in general can be a big bummer if not handled properly with huge disparity between teams. Kids get bummed out and aren't having fun, only to eventually drop out and never return. Keeping scores and standings but also telling everyone it's all about the fun is a tough gig for a coach. No coach wants to get blown out or be at the bottom of the standings, so keeping the score and standings adds an underlying pressure whether it's talked about or not.

I think rec leagues would benefit more if the directors emphasized things other than standings and scores. Maybe give out awards for most passes in a game, or most assists, or best sportsmanship, or hustles, or anything to get the focus off the standings and scores. The refs could help during the game by encouraging kids during the breaks about how well they are passing or defending, etc.

As I browse through these past few posts, I think JMO that the problems are with the parents and coaches with a WIN attitude.

Winning is fine, but not at the cost of fundamentals and having FUN. You need to have pre season meetings and talk about your goals... Is it WINNING or teaching kids the fundamentals of the game and getting them ready to play at the next level.

Write down your goals, discuss it with the parents and make sure they are on the same page. As for when to go into a zone, pressing and / or trapping league..... I for one think that the 6th grade is early enough.... those coaches that do that stuff are thinking about winning only. You can win a lot of games at that age because the kids cant handle it well (at least the average kid) Again, JMO

Thanks to this forum, I've adopted the pre-season coaches/parents meeting in all the sports I coach and it's helped out tremendously. I actually added something else to the mix this past bb season and asked the boys and parents to bring with them a sheet of paper that states the #1 goal they hope to obtain this season. It's just a way to visualize the difference in every kid and every parent and myself. If we all have the same goals, awesome but it rarely turns out that way.

14 Boys Response:
6 = They wanted to win
8 = They wanted to have fun

21 Parents Response:
7 = Wins (as it promotes self-confidence?)
8 = for the boys to improve by season end
6 = their son to have fun

Those 6 boys who want to win, I explain you can't do that if you don't take care of the fundamentals and improve on those. Winning at all costs is not my M.O.