With our 10th grade boys’ team, we ran a 4-out 1-in motion offense. We used this offense against man to man defense and ALL zone defenses. It worked great!!
Other than a couple “end of quarter set plays”, we never changed what we ran. We always ran our 41 motion offense regardless of what defense we faced.
As an experiment, we started our season with a different motion offense. That was a mistake!
After 6 games, we switched to the 41 motion explained below. Once it was implemented it worked great for us.
We started the season with 9 losses in a row. Then amazingly we finished the rest of the season with 11 wins and 1 loss.
The 41 motion offense was part of the reason for our incredible turn around.
Here are the rules for our 41 motion offense…
Emphasis
- Good spacing (15-18’ between players)
- Move the ball… lots of ball movement (if a guy is open give it to him)
- Get the ball inside
- Patience. Look for lay ups and get at least 10 passes before we look to shoot outside.
- Cut hard
- Offensive rebounding – must have a player in weak-side rebounding position on EVERY shot. Anticipate the shot.
Post Rules
- Stay back side or high post unless flashing or holding in the 3 second area. When ball is reversed, move to the back side or post up for 3 seconds (max).
- Pin defenders on ball reversal (as the ball come back to you). Look to pin when ball goes to the corner too.
Perimeter Rules
- Always fill the spot closest to the ball
- Fill to the open corner once inside the three point line. (Once inside three point line, can’t pop back out. No dancing.)
- When you pass the ball, basket cut or screen away.
Cutting Rules
- Make hard cuts to the backboard.
- Watch the cutter.
- When you pass and cut..
- If defense jumps to ball, back door cut.
- If defense stays, face cut.
- When one pass away and overplayed, backdoor cut. If defense underplays (sags), pop out.
- Read the defense on the back side. If the corner defender starts anticipating the “fill” and cheats up, back cut behind the defender and seal.
- Pass and cut rules also apply to post pass. Laker cut and fill opposite. When post player is on the block, cut to elbow (to maintain spacing) and then clear to opposite corner.
Screening Rules
- Come off shoulder to hip and hard.
- Set up the screen by getting slightly below the screener. Don’t go too deep so the play develops quickly.
- Read the screen (curl, straight cut, back cut/reject, or flare).
- For good timing and quick passing, screener must pop as the cutter brushes their shoulder and cut to ball aggressively (sprint back to the same spot you came from).
Dribble Drive Rules
- Straight line drive with purpose of GETTING TO THE RIM!
- If the ball is dribbled at you, back cut.
- On dribble penetration, players off the ball need to move, open passing windows, look to rebound, and then fill open spots. If your defender helps up to the ball, back cut. If your defender help down to the basket, pop out.
Pass, Cut, Back Screen
- When perimeter players pass and cut, they can now have the option to back screen.
- Look to back screen the next passer.
- Make sure that they still cut all the way to the backboard.
- Screener steps out.
Note: We did not add the back screen option. If we had more time we probably would have added this option.
Zone Adjustments
When facing zone defense, run the exact same motion with the following adjustments:
- When you pass, always cut (instead of screening away).
- Use the “Hook and Look” when passing and cutting. Cutter finds the open spot in the zone, hooks in there, and looks for the ball.
- Post player looks to find gaps, seal defenders, and maintain good spacing.
Note: The biggest thing we had to emphasize when facing zone was….make sure you quickly fill spots to the ball on the perimeter and create good angles to allow for good ball movement.
For some reason, when teams went to zone, our players stopped filling spots the way the were supposed to. So we had to emphasize that to make it work effectively.
Closing Comments
It might seem like we have a lot of rules. But in reality we kept things simple. Many of the rules are simply offensive fundamentals we wanted to emphasize. The fundamentals take time to develop.
The offense is really simple. Put players in 4 out 1 in spots. Post player stays on weak-side and looks to post when balls comes back to him. Perimeter players either basket cut or screen away when you pass and/or when you’re covered. Fill spots after you move/cut. Other than the “fundamental execution details”, that’s pretty much it.
Keep great spacing, keep the ball moving, and teach the fundamentals. Looking at the rules on paper it seems a little complicated. But truth be told the offense was extremely simple. And it has been extremely effective for us.
Motion Offense Resources
If you want to learn more about motion offense, I highly recommend the Don Kelbick Motion Offense DVDs.
I’m considering running this with our 3rd grade team next fall when we come back together…they’ll be 4th grade in the fall. How would I teach this to 4th graders? Anything different? On paper this does look super complicated, but a year or two ago my daughter’s middle school team ran it and some girls were brand new to basketball. So, I’m hopeful our 4th grade boys can run it.
I love the motion offense, but when we tried the traditional down screen, pass and screen away, screen block to block, we failed miserably. We ended up running a bunch of ball screens and when that didn’t work (teams learned to switch all ball screens) we were done in our half-court offense. We could only score in transition and off steals in the press, but I want them to learn to play half-court and use the fundamentals which will help them when skill levels increase.
I’d love to hear your thoughts. Thanks!
Jackie –
If teaching to 4th graders, I would do the following….
1) I would rotate my post players. I would not want to pigeonhole any young players into a “position” and I think it’s really important that all players learn and play all positions. This is why I play a 5 out with my youth team. If running a 4 out, I would rotate post players every game. Maybe Jim and John would be post in game 1. In game 2, Brad and Bob would be my posts.
2) I would practice some aways screens in practice (via screen away shooting drills) maybe part way through the season. This way they start learning “how to screen”. However I would not using the screening portion of the offense. I would do basket cuts only.
Basically what I would do is following the Motion Offense Rules I explained on this page:
http://jeffhaefner.com/coach/what-we-did-with-our-4th-grade-youth-basketball-team-offense-defense-skills-and-more/
Then add the “Post Rules” above.
You basically have to teach in layers. Start by focusing on cutting, spacing, and dribble drive (spacing off the dribble, etc). Next year maybe you can add screening. I have a super bright group for 4th grade girls. I think next year as 5th graders they will be ready for both cutting and screening in a game. This year that would be way too much. Only a couple players on the team are mentally capable of doing both.
3) The key is do develop fundamentals. If players spread the floor you’ll get drive to the basket, drive and dish for lay ups, and some occasional back door cuts for lay ups. You have to developing 1on1 dribble drive fundamentals, practice lay ups, learn to pass and dribble at the same time, improve footwork, etc. If you have decent post players you might get post ups too.
I hope this helps. If you have questions let me know.
This is very helpful. Thanks, Jeff.
I had a 4th grade team this past season with a mix of 4th, 3rd, and 2nd grades. We played the Read & React with an emphasis on ‘hook and look’ to combat the zone defense that all our opponents played. 99% of what we did offensively was focused on half court offense.
What I like about R&R is that there is a methodology with the layers and the teaching progression — but what Jeff outlined above is excellent and at the youth level I think amounts to a lot of the same thing running any motion offense.
All the boys picked up the offense — some more than others of course but they were all able to contribute.
Jeff,
What adjustments would you make against a box and one (8th grade team)? I love the motion concept, but since I have one legitimate scorer, alot of teams are going to play us with a box and one.
David
This probably isn’t the answer your looking for but I would suggest focusing on developing more scorers. Unless you have fundamentally skilled players and somewhat of a balanced attack, it doesn’t matter much what you do. Other teams will be able to limit your scoring if they employ tactics like this.
We now run all 5 out motion and have always focus on player development. I really don’t know how anyone could run box and one against any of our teams.
At the very least, find something each player can do. Maybe one kid is just mid range jumpers, another is great at finishing at basket, another has jump hook. Start developing their offensive skills. This is especially important in 8th grade.
Then run motion offense… move the ball and keep great spacing until players get a good shot (get a shot they are good at).
If you need info on player development, let us know and we’ll point you in the right direction.
Thank you, Jeff! Your insights are quite helpful. It all comes back to teaching the fundamentals of the the game.
Joe, I ran a 4-1 with my 6th grade girls. We ran it against both Man and Zone defenses. One thing I noticed against man to man, is the cutter and the post often got clogged in the high post. Which meant there were 4 players (2 offense and 2 defense) in a very small area. How did you prevent or minimize this?
Against zones, how would you get player placement in the short corner? Or did you?
I transitioned to using a 3 out 2 in for zone defenses, just so I can get more post presence high, low and in the short corner.
Thoughts?
Thanks!
Coach –
Q1) How to prevent cutter and high post getting clogged? Personally I have not experienced this problem. Couple thoughts. If the cutter is cutting hard to the basket, they should only be clogged for a split second. Might actually turn into an unintentional rub screen and be a good thing. Second, we spend a lot of time emphasizing spacing. Our post did a pretty good job keeping spaced from the perimeter players. And thinking back he didn’t spend much time at high post. It was always a “flash cut” to high post. Then if he didn’t get it, he want back to weakside post or short corner.
Q2) Getting player placement in short corner. We did naturally get that a little bit just because our post was used to playing weakside and then naturally found gaps there. I think you emphasize “finding gaps and keeping spacing”. Then if needed, show your post the short corner. You could have him stay there if you want. There is not right or wrong. I give players lots of freedom to interpret the situation.
Q3) Running 3 out 2 in versus zone. Until this year I have always done the same thing. However our 4 out 1 in work so well we never switched. There was one game this season where we struggled against zone. At half time, my players asked if they could go to 3 out 2 in because we were struggling so much. I told them… “good idea, I know what you are saying. but let’s working our 4 out for 5 more minutes doing it the right way. if we still struggle we’ll make the switch”. We ended up going a a big run and won the game. The problem in the first half is players were not cutting hard and cutting into gaps as a threat. They always ran away from the ball like robots. Second, they were not filling spots quickly… they were hanging out two passes away. Once they filled spots and did it right, the offense worked awesome.
Regarding the last comments, we get better ball movement and player movement versus zone in our 4 out. This is because the constant cutting pulls perimeter defenders in and either the inside our outside is aways open.
Do you run this offense against a 2-3 zone?
Yes. It worked great when the players ran it correctly. See “Zone Adjustments” section above. I’ll paste this note in that section which was a key for us getting it to work…
“The biggest thing we had to emphasize when facing zone was….make sure you quickly fill spots to the ball on the perimeter and create good angles to allow for good ball movement.
For some reason, when teams went to zone, our players stopped filling spots (to the ball) the way the were supposed to. So we had to emphasize that to make it work effectively.”
I’ve been wanting to run something like this and have been looking for the information, thank you this came at the perfect time!!! We’ve has some success running a very simple 5 out pass-cut-replace philosophy with our 5th grade girls and now it’s time to add this ‘wrinkle’. Thanks again, I can’t wait to start working on this
Coach – I ran this 41 motion with my 10th grade boys. However with my 5th grade girls team I run 5 out pass and cut like you. I much prefer the 5 out offense for youth primarily because “player development” is my biggest priority. And since the 5 out has interchangeable positions and it’s very flexible, I think it’s better for player development. I really don’t like using a permanent post (as with the motion above) with young kids.
With our 5 out motion for youth, we do tons of string spacing (drive and move) and cutting. It’s extremely effective. We also teach screens because I think that’s important to learn. But we hardly use screens yet. Tactically they just aren’t ready for that many options. We also allow players to cut and post up whenever the ball is on the wing.
http://jeffhaefner.com/coach/what-we-did-with-our-4th-grade-youth-basketball-team-offense-defense-skills-and-more/
The 4 out above is flexible and a good offense. But I suggest keeping your 5 out and just adding wrinkles to that. If you need help just let me know. I love the 5 out for youth and actually with the personel I have next year, I think I’ll run 5 out with my high school team too.
I have been using this for a number of years. It is a flex offense. It can be used as a M2M or against a zone if you don’t use the base line cut. Quite a few screen and cuts, but quite effective. Must have players who play hard inside against defense.
Coach – Maybe our definitions of the flex are different or maybe I’m misunderstanding, but the 41 motion above definitely is not flex. The flex is a patterned offense (continuity). The motion above is not (no predefined cuts and players have lots of freedom to decide what to do). Also, flex usually has a strong side post. We keep post on weakside most of the time. And flex screens aren’t part of the offense. Hopefully this clarifies and does’t cause more confusion. 🙂
Would love to see a video of this offense running!!
I ran something very similar with my high school boys team last year and it worked great for us against any Man defense (18-6 record). The only difference in our 4-1 motion is that our primary options for perimeter players are pass/ball screen (if passing from the top to a wing player) and pass/screen away (if passing from top to top). By eliminating the cut through option we helped keep the paint open for dribble drives or pick-and-roll attacks.
Similar to Jeff we instituted a rule for all perimeter players that they must screen away or back cut as soon as they are denied from getting the ball in one of the top two spots. This constant player motion allowed us to have excellent spacing and ball movement. Our general offensive philosophy consists of having our players constantly think “what can I do right now (with or without the ball) to help my teammates get open for a great shot”.
As someone else mentioned a nice wrinkle to the 4-1 setup is that once teams adjust to the basic motion pattern, you can adjust by having your team run a flex pattern to catch the defense off guard.
I am a strong believer in the 4-1 motion set and would love to hear how other coaches use it in their context!
Could you explain the “hook and look” please?i
When facing zone players cut toward the basket…. then as they get into the middle of the zone, take a step back toward the ball (in a gap). Pause for a 2 count and if you don’t get the ball clear out to the weak side.
Coach, do you run any sets with your 4-1 motion? What sets do you think work best for this offense against a 2-3 zone vs. M2M? Or do you just have them start the offense by filling the spots?
We didn’t do much with set plays. We spent almost all our practice time on free throws, shooting, finishing, half court offense, and defense. And then other skills by taking pieces of our offense and turning them into skill drills.
We ran this really simple play at the end of quarters:
https://www.breakthroughbasketball.com/playcreator/view.asp?id=59&type=play
And then had a couple really simple quick hitters from that same set. One had a scissors action and I forget the other. Nothing special and scissors gave us a few baskets but usually only worked a couple times in the game, if at all.
I have a ton of set plays versus zone here in this ebook.
https://www.breakthroughbasketball.com/pr/zone-plays.html?id=75
But we didn’t use any this past season because the motion worked fine and frankly we had no time for anything but skills and motion. We were shooting under 40% from FT line starting the season. This particular group of players did not work in the off season. Had our work cut out for us!! Plus I don’t run a lot of sets anyway. Just focus on player development and motion (which fortunately you can work on at the same time).
Against zones, we just ran out same exact 4 out 1 in motion. See adjustments above in the article. It worked great.
As far as what we started in… we just ran transition to those 4 out spots and started from there. We of course had to teach players how to get open. And teach the PG to attack either the basket and then score or kick (depending on if the defense helps). Or have the PG just dribble right at a wing, they back cut, and the offense gets started.
This sounds like a very basic offense that forces the players recognize what the defense is doing and react to it. Last year my 5th grade team ran a 5 out pass and cut offense that worked at times. I really like giving the kids a chance to do something different every time down the court. If I am looking at starting to do this, would your recommend the 5 out or the 4-1?. I personally like having a player flash to the high post and potentially rotating it weak side. Any insight?
Personally I think a 5 out is better for 5th graders or any youth team. The biggest reason is that I believe it’s a mistake to pigeonhole young players into a “post position”. The development of those players really get hindered when you choose their positions too early. If you run the 4-1, you should rotate so everyone learns the post and the perimeter positions. So maybe you have two posts in game 1. And then in game 2 you have two new post players. However this unnecessarily complicates the teaching of offensive concepts to young players.
I’m not bashing the 4-1 with youth. There are much worse things out there you can be doing. I just think 5 out is better.
If you want post up options, give certain players (or all of them) the option to post up after passing from the top to a wing. This assures good passing angles. So they cut from the top to mid post area, if the defense plays high, seal them high. If defense plays low, hold them low. If you don’t get the ball in 4 seconds, clear out to the weakside spot.
If you prefer to have players flash to high post, then in the 5 out give them the option to flash to high post when they are on the weakside corner. Teach them to cut to high post when the defender turns their head. If they don’t get the ball in a 3-5 count, clear out to weakside or back screen for a strong side player to get back to 5 out spots.
Both of those post up methods are effective. But with young kids I’d just choose one option to teach to keep things simple.
The 5 out is very flexible and can grow with you. You can teach screen away, ball screens, back screens, and of course cutting. You can also keep it simple. I have seen high school varsity teams win the state tournament running 5 out with cutting only. They also has an option where they set a high ball screen (called play at certain times). It’s not what you do, it’s how you do it. Even the basic 5 out with cutting only can be very effective is you do it right and develop skilled players.
I run 5 out with my young teams but give lots of freedom. There are only 3 rules that I stick to and emphasize:
1) Keep good spacing
2) Move the ball (you gotta constantly get open to do this)
3) Keeping doing that until you get a good shot.
Whether they cut, pop out, screen away, or back screen is up to them. But for the most part the cut and use their dribble drive to create. They are very good at driving and then all the players move to keep spacing and create good passing angles as the ball is dribbled. Super simple and effective.
Do you have any drills that would work this concept of creating good passing angles when there is a dribble drive? Do you have any good drills for driving to the paint and kicking out?
We just play 5v5 half or full court to practice this stuff. To practice drive and kick you can play 3v3, 4v4 or 5v5 half court. Then add a restriction that you can only catch the ball outside of 3pt line. With this restriction you get a lot of driving and kicking to the outside.
What should the post player look for when thinking about when to flash?
Spacing. The post should maintain spacing with the perimeter players. If a perimeter player is curling for example, that’s not a good time to flash because there’s no space. It takes quite a bit of experience to learn when to flash. But really it’s not important (see below).
The one simple guideline that always holds true is when your perimeter players need a pressure release too look flash to the high post or maybe even perimeter to give your guards a pressure release.
Beyond that, I try to teach post players patience… stay on the weakside and wait for the rebound or for the ball to come to you. So as perimeter players reverse the ball, the post looks for that, steps in, seals, and creates great position as the ball comes to you. Hold for a few counts, then go back to weakside if you don’t get the ball.
Thank you!
I coach 3/4 grade girls. The league I am in only allows man to man in the last quarter. So my question is…can I still use the 5 out method or should go with the 1-3-1? Your thoughts???
Both work. With our young team we run 5 out and have the cutter stop in the middle looking for a gap. Then clear after a 2 or 3 count. A 1-3-1 gap attach is another simple way to play against the zone. If at some point our 5 out stops working or if we’re not getting the ball inside enough, I might switch to the 1-3-1 gap attack. Really it’s your preference… the main thing is to make sure everyone gets touches, plays different positions, and is developing. I like 5 out because of interchangeable positions and the development aspects that go along with it.
Hi there. I am currently coaching grade 7/8 girls basketball team and we have been trying the 5out. We are having a really hard time getting the ball inside on tight d and I find that the point guard is getting stuck at the one spot. I think this would be a small change running the four out offense. Are there any good videos that I can show or easy ways that I can start teaching this? My team is very inexperienced and I would like to transition from the five to the four out without causing too much stress with only three or four weeks left in our season. Any help would be much appreciated.
Thank you.
Paul – I don’t know about you but our 4 out is based on the same concepts as our 5 out (spacing, cutting, screen away, occasional ball screens, and dribble penetration). So if we want to go to 4 out, we just pick on player to be in the post permanently and nothing really changes. Players space on the perimeter slightly different and need to get used to that but that’s the only change. We keep our post on the weakside and let them ball come to them (as explained above).
When running the 5 out, I find it’s important to define roles (specify which players we want getting post ups) and then teach players when to look for those opportunities (after cutting, coming off a screen, ball screen and roll, flash cuts, etc). If we really emphasize it we find we can get lots of post touches from out 5 out. But we have to emphasize it otherwise players don’t look for it enough.
Thank you for the quick reply. We are right in the heart of the season. I just found that when we ran our 50 last game we were really struggling to get the ball inside and I was thinking maybe if we did the Forough it would work a lot better. As far as what I have been teaching on five out, because of the level of inexperience, I have really been teaching pass cuts, if someone dribbles out you back cut, and if someone is overplaying you back cut. I’ve been having trouble because sometimes two players will back could at the same time or my wing players are not getting enough for my one to help her out. If you were to teach the Forough next practice how would you keep it simple and train your players? I know everything is above I’m just trying to not confuse the girls. Thanks a lot!
Basically initiating the fiber office has been really hard, but more that I think about it before I would work better. Let me know what you think!
I’m assuming auto-correct took over and “fiber office” means “5 out”. 🙂
When I have trouble with offense, I almost always emphasize spacing, ball movement, fundamentals, and/or taking good shots. I keep things simple. So with two players cutting at the same time, that is a spacing issue. Emphasize spacing. There are so many different situations that can occur… sometimes things get messed up. Tell players to keep spacing and when things get messed up, fix spacing.
Spacing and ball movement… preach constantly. In order to move the ball, players must get open (fill to the ball and then read the defense). Here’s a simple drill that might help with getting open:
https://www.breakthroughbasketball.com/play.asp?id=437
Here’s what I recommend for spacing:
https://www.breakthroughbasketball.com/haefner/how-to-develop-great-spacing-on-offense-spacing-drills-for-your-motion-offense/
Again, I would keep teaching spacing, ball movement, and fundamentals. Whether it’s a 5 out or 4 out it really doesn’t matter.
Wow thank you so much for the drills. I’m going to use that pop out and back cut still got sure! Just wondering, what would be your direction to the kids when my 1 is taking the ball up the floor and is getting tight d from her defender and the wings. Would you teach back cut from the wings, or have the wings come to the ball? I found that if a wing made a back cut, because the one didn’t make it past half very far, that it was a tight pass. I was missing players last game and had a few girls inexperienced girls playing the 1 spot. Sort of why I wanted another player in the center like 4 out.
We mix it up between just telling wing players to get open (screen away or back cut and get moving)… or use this entry:
https://www.breakthroughbasketball.com/haefner/our-transition-offense-super-simple/
If your PGs have trouble advancing the ball then that’s a skill issue. Then need to practice ballhandling and lots of full court 1v1 type of drills.
OK awesome. I will give these a go and definitely let you know how it goes! Thanks again
Any drills that come to mind to work on one on ones? For court or continuous. Many thanks
https://www.breakthroughbasketball.com/drills/1on1-grid-drill.html
https://www.breakthroughbasketball.com/drills/high-five-one-on-one.html
https://www.breakthroughbasketball.com/play.asp?id=66
https://www.breakthroughbasketball.com/pr/30-competitive-drills.html
Hi Jeff,
How do adjust to zones that attack the point as soon as he crosses half court? In AUU, it seems lots of teams in the younger grades play more aggressive zones.
Thanks
Depends on the type of zone, where they attack, the age of the kids, and how often I see it. In some cases I do nothing. It’s not worth wasting time on since I’m more interested in developing players and not dealing with teams using tactics that will not work when players get older.
Usually with our younger kids, our PG just beats it. We spend a lot of time on ballhandling skill, lifting eyes, changing speeds, beating double teams, and so on. And since we run motion our players understand spacing, passing angles, and how to get open. So they just keep spacing and “play”. Sometimes we do the same in high school, depending on the ability of our players and the zone we face.
Other times we run a half court press breaker which you can read about here:
https://www.breakthroughbasketball.com/offense/press-breaker.html
Love this. We tried it for our summer program where we have no time to learn plays, etc. I love just teaching them good basketball and to trust instincts rather than looking like a deer caught in the headlights trying to figure out what to do. Question – what if the wing/corner passes to the 1 or 2 guard up high. Where do they go after they cut? It seems like the only open spot would be their previous corner spot. No place to fill. Thanks for this website. I’ve used it a lot over the last 8 years.
Zach – We usually just have the corner player cut to basket and then go back to same spot. But generally I just let players figure it out. I just want them to keep spacing and keep the ball moving — up to them to figure out where to go.
Question regarding the zone attach…when running the 4 out, the passer cuts and then hooks? Or do they just do basket cuts? I wasn’t really sure what they typically did. And then for the “5” do you normally have them go short corner to short corner?
I have 7th grade as said before and will be teaching motion for the first time to all 30 kids haha I know one team in our league runs 100% 2-3 zone all game and another runs it’s 50% of the time.
Would you recommend just going 5 out and running hooks against the zone? I was thinking of starting with 5 out and progressing but knowing that we will face strictly zone teams i wanted to be prepared as to what I should be working on. I have some tall kids but wanted to avoid just putting them in the post and hindering their development. Advice would be appreciated
I would suggest trying both 5 out 4 out against zone. See what works best for you. I have found both work well but my teams seem to have a preference and that preference varies. They both work the same. You pass and cut into a gap in the middle. Wait for 2-3 seconds or until the next pass is made. If in 5 out, you just have a player in short corner. This player can go to both sides but I would avoid always following the ball. I would sometimes wait for the ball to come back to you or look to cut from behind the zone into a gap. The main thing is all players should keep spaced.
And like you mentioned, rotate your young post players from game to game so they don’t pigeonholed into a position.
Thanks you for the reply. I really do appreciate the help
Question. When someone hooks into the zone, and the ball handler passes to the “hooker” does the passer then basket cut? Or does the hooked guy look to score/dump to corner? Any advice would be appreciated
We don’t really tell the passer anything. We just want them all players to keep spacing and find gaps. That might mean they stay where they are, relocate, or cut into a gap.
The receiver we tell to look for shot first (shoot or drive), then look to low post/short corner, then look opposite wing (reversal). They should go through that decision progression very quickly… we don’t want the ball sticking there very long at all.
Do you find that the 4 out vs 2-3 zone doesn’t match up properly due to the spacing of the perimeter players? With the 5 and 3 out the perimeter players are in the gaps where the 4 out players are kind of lined up with the zone players…
I wondered the same thing but I have found the 4 out is very effective against the 2-3 zone. The continual cutting action distorts the 2-3 zone, sucks in perimeter defenders, and forces them to move quite a bit.
do you find that when first teaching the 5 or 4 out offense that several kids don’t get the movement at all? If so, how do you help them progress? I think I a lot of the team will get it but I know some that just simply won’t get it (I coached them in other sports and when it came to the movement stuff it just froze them). The ones I’m worried about will typically be my center. I think starting with the 4 out will help me for sure but I’m not sure if it’s fair to the kids I’m thinking about. Any tips
Sometimes player struggle. In some cases we have one or two kids that always basket cut. The rest of the players know that and incorporate other movements around them. To teach you run breakdown drills, 2v0, 3v0, 5v0, 3v3, 4v4, 5v5. We do a lot of multi tasking — working on shooting, defense, rebounding, etc while working no motion movements.
Oh ok I see. Thank you again for your help!
Can you give an example of a 2v0 or 3v0 drill you would use with younger players?
2v0. 1 player or a line at top of key, each player has ball. On the wing have 1 player or a line without a ball. Pass to wing, backet cut, and receive the pass back for a lay up. If you go 3v0, have the weakside wing fill the open spot after basket cut. You can practice any motion action and finishing with a lay up. You can move players to different spots, practice different actions, start ball in different spots or even add a ball so 2 players practice shooting (example: https://www.breakthroughbasketball.com/drills/3-screen-away.html).
Ok thanks. I’m working with 4th graders so I’ll try to keep it as simple as possible. They do ok in practice with cutting and screening away, but in games they either don’t cut at all or all of them cut at the same exact time.
You say against zone you ran the hook and look. Does this mean you ran the hook and look vs junk defenses (box and 1, triangle and 2)?
We never see junk defenses. If we did we’d run regular motion… setting screens, cutting, and just playing like it was man to man.
Thanks for the reply.
I’m thinking hook and look may work better vs box and 1 because you could run the boxed guy through and create a diamond overload on the other side with everyone else that I don’t think the box could adjust to with quick ball movement. The con is they effectively take our boxed guy out of the game.
If it’s a triangle and 2 I think regular motion may work better because you have guys to screen and overloading the zone wouldn’t really work.
This is just what I’m envisioning.
You say you ran the same offense against a zone. Did you still keep the post on the weak side? I do like that look against a 1-3-1 but pinning the defender doesn’t work very well because that corner behind him is open anyways as the hooker will fill it so there is no pin and skip pass option. I also don’t like flashing him from the weak side as I think it would clog things with the hooker?
I decided against zones to have the post run BS short corner to short corner to create the buddy system with the hooker but I love having the post on weak side vs man (especially since my posts aren’t tall or skilled). My skilled and tall guards can flash post in there at times.
I also have found we don’t get great looks against a 2-3 (I know you said you had a different experience) because the guards and forwards of the 2-3 seem to be able to match the offensive set. I like a 1-3-1 alignment vs the 2-3. That’s the only time I deviate from the motion.
When running 4 out 1 in against zone we mix up the post positioning. The big thing is we want spacing for everyone. Sometimes the post will stay weakside, other times flash, and sometimes work the short corner. Spacing is all that I’m concerned with. Then players generally figure things out.
If the post stays weakside and you get a reversals, the majority of 2-3 zones have their forward come up to guard the wing until the defensive guard bumps them back. So this opens up 1v1 in the post if the your post waits on the weakside. Super simple stuff. Ball reversal, post waits for it, seals the center defender, and easy post entry.
The perimeter players need to be smart about their cuts and not cut into the post. Again… spacing.
But nothing wrong with going short corner to short corner. Or using 1-3-1 offensive alignment. There are so many different ways to attack the zone. It comes back to spacing, ball movement, and basic zone offense concepts. I think every coach has to figure out what works for them. Thanks for sharing.
Good Post. I’ve got my post away from just running short corner to short corner like a robot and let him figure things out. Sometimes he’ll stay weak side and other times he’ll stay ball side short corner. When he’s weak side I like him to flash high post as the ball goes from the wing to the guard as we don’t have our wings cut on passes. He basically flashes up after the hooker vacates.
What are your thoughts on ball screens in the motion offense? If you were to implement them do you think it’s more effective to bring the big up to set ball screens or to add a pass and ball screen layer?
With younger kids we rarely use 4 out motion. We use 5 out or don’t even talk about alignments and just want spacing. Then we allow anyone to ball screen so they all learn the technique. Usually it’s a pass and then ball screen or just recognize you are one pass from the ball. I just keep an eye to make sure they don’t get too ball screen happy and if needed I’ll add some restrictions.
With older players (around 7th or 8th grade and up), we usually only allow one player to ball screen (ex: the 5). This is true if running 4 out, 5 out, or no alignment. If I were running the 4 out I would only allow my post to ball screen. Or in some cases if I have another big that could cause match up problems I might allow the tall perimeter player to also ball screen.
So to answer your question… both methods work well. Just depends on your personnel.
Thanks for your thoughts so far. With my HS team I’ve only been having the 5 man set ball screens. I’m running the 4 out motion this year with success when the kids are actually patient.
My alignment is similar to yours in that I have the two guards in the slots just outside the free throw lines extended and two wings just below the free throw line extended which leaves the corner spots open. (according to the picture above maybe your wing guys are a little lower). I have taught the cutter to fill the open wing which is opposite of where they throw the ball. I was watching some read and react clips (which I think is just a fancy name for motion) where the cutter actually chooses which corner he wants to go to? Would you recommend the cutter choosing the open corner or filling opposite?
In my opinion I don’t think it matters. I just tell players to find an open area on the perimeter. In most cases they end up opposite the ball but I’m good with them going strong side if there is space. I just want spacing and let players figure out where to go.
So I’ve been having my post set some ball screens up top for the guards in the slot. I had found that it was just too tight of an area to effectively operate out of (the guards are too close together). I have started having the weak side players (guard and wing) interchange when the #5 man sets a ball screen for a guard. Do you have any similar rules when you run ball screens with high school?
It seems to work okay when there’s a guard to guard pass and then the ball screen from the 5 because the guard will pass or screen away and occupy weak side defenders. When the ball comes up from the wing and we set the ball screen then I’ve taught the guys on the weak side to interchange.
Just always looking to tweak or find something to improve on to keep the offense improving!
When we get a ball screen from anyone, I just show players the type of spacing they need to create. You need to give the player with the ball and the screener space to run that action. I’m ok with players interchanging or just sliding over to create more space. I do not dicate how they do it as long as they make space.
Thanks for the response.
A couple more things I’ve thought about…
When you have guys fill on the perimeter do you have them straight cut to the ball?
Also,
When teams try to get out and trap in the front court in like a 1-3-1 I imagine you run the motion zone offense but do you have the “1 IN” guy go middle initially to help out if the defense is trapping near half court? I ask because we ran into this situation and turned it over a few times before we settled down.
We just tell guys to fill to the ball, keep spacing, and then if covered get open. We don’t get too technical. We do run some breakdown drills teaching players fundamental skills of cutting, screening, etc. But we when teaching the offense we give them freedom. You could always have them L cut etc but we don’t do that.
Yea we usually have one player “in” working the middle and constantly working to get open. Sometimes when ball goes to corner the “in” player drops to low post.
Coach, did you give your players any specific rules for when they were in the corner spots? After the pass, did you want them to hold their spot? cut and fill right back out? something else? The place where my team struggled this year is that without imposing any restrictions, the corner player would cut all the way through the lane and we’d struggle to rebalance the floor if the cut didn’t lead to a scoring opportunity. We ran a very similar offense to this and it worked at times, but we struggled to figure out what to do after a pass from the corner back toward the top.
When we pass from the corner players almost always went back where they came from. It was like a deep v-cut. Because like you said… going all the way through can mess up the spacing.
In 4 out when you have the nearest guy fill to the ball do you have them wait until the passer has made his cut that way it doesn’t clog a potential driving gap?
The player that fills needs to wait and see what the passer will do. If the passer is going to screen away, they need to wait, set up the screen, and use it. Otherwise we just want players keeping good spacing. We let players figure out most timing on their own… we mostly emphasize spacing.