Permanent Pivot
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Author:  a_fedder [ 21 Oct 2014, 18:00 ]
Post subject:  Permanent Pivot


Your system is great! A previous post mention the use of the permanent pivot. Right handed shooters only use the left foot as their pivot and vice versa. I coach JV Girls and the Varsity coach is a proponent of the Permanent Pivot tech. Ultimately, I will implement what is wanted but I would like to know your thoughts. I have watched other DVD's with USA Basketball's Don Showalter who also advocates for the Permanent Pivot, another is Mavs Skills Trainer Mike Procopio.

Q1- What are the pros and cons from your view point of the Permanent Pivot tech?
Q2- Is ithe Permanent Pivot a more simplistic approach to a level like JV Girls where skill experience is not at a high level?
Q3- (I know I would be limiting my pivot options but...) Is your system adaptable to the Permanent Pivot tech?

Andy Fedder

Author:  JoeHaefner [ 22 Oct 2014, 06:20 ]
Post subject:  Re: Permanent Pivot

Andy, how does your varsity coach teach to pivot if a player is running towards the ball? Say Player A runs from the left corner to the left wing. The passer is at the top.

Would they use their left foot to pivot or right foot to pivot in that situation?

Second, this is an idea that I read somewhere, but I can't recall where. If you use the same pivot foot all of the time, can it create muscle, tendon, and ligament imbalances that could lead to an injury or poorer performance?

For example, I have a player that I train that developed a habit of jumping off his right foot for lay ups. It doesn't matter what angle he is coming from, he always jumps off his right foot.

Recently, we found out that his hips are tilted more to one side. Is it because of the jumping off the right leg or does he jump this way because of his hips? I don't know.

Even though his skills are advanced for his age, we work on basic footwork lay up drills to get repetitions jumping off the other (left) leg.

I also have heard athletic development "experts" talk about taking baseball teams and having them bat the opposite way for the same reason.

I know that Peyton Manning warms up with his left hand. I'm assuming for the same reason.

I know that's not an angle a lot of basketball coaches look at.

Author:  kelbickd [ 22 Oct 2014, 10:29 ]
Post subject:  Re: Permanent Pivot


Thanks for your interest. This can be a HUGE discussion when I'm involved, probably to big for a forum, but I'll try to keep it concise.

First, I'll answer the last question. "Attack and Counter" really is not really a system. It is a mentality. I am not a fan of reading defenses and taking what they give you. Defenses will give you the things you can't do. The result is you are forced to do things you can't do. If you read and react, yo are always acting 2nd (hence the word "react"). I believe that you do what you are good at and dare them to stop you. You now have the defense doing things that they don't want to do. They can defend you but it doesn't mean they can stop you. If they do stop you, have one or two things that you can go to immediately to counter the defender. Things that you are good at, not that your defender wants you to do. In that regard, it is adaptable to everything.

To answer your second question, basketball itself is simplistic. Higher level players don't necessarily do different things, they just do them better. Given the physical difference and its effects, there really isn't anything that a high level player can do that a Jr. High JV player can't do. The JV player just won't do it as well. A dribble is a dribble, a pass is a pass and a shot is a shot. I work with them alll the same way. I may not have to spend as much time on some things with high level players, but it is still the same.

In regard to permanent pivot foot, I can only speak to my experience. I don't know Don Showalter (did he coach at Dayton or is this his son?) but I have known Mike Procpio since he was in HS and I am sure that they have reasons for teaching what they teach. I just don't agree with them.

As for pros and cons, the pro is that it is better than a jump stop. That's really all I can come up with.

There are a few things that I believe about shooting. First, shooting is not a visual activity, it is something you do by feel. Second, to be a good shooter, you have to make every shot the same. Your action has to be repeatable, same rhythm, same motion. Third, you have to effectively control all the forces of inertia that are created as you play the game. How you shoot doesn't matter if you can't get your body, from sole to head, moving in the proper direction. To go into depth on that would take hours of writing, so a deep discussion would have to take place in some other type of discussion. You can call me if you like.

I will go to my grave believing the best way to do that is with an inside foot plant. When I work on shooting, that is what I concentrate on. Shooting is a very personal and individual skill. I have problems with people that try to make it a science. I don't believe that. On the whole, I believe that shooting is an art. It's different for everyone. However there is science behind the art. I believe that is you do those three things (feel , repeatability and inertia) you can just do what's comfortable when you shoot. Trying to fit a shot inside of "classic" box can be really counterproductive. Would you teach someone to shoot like Shawn Marion? Pretty ugly, but very effective. Because he has those 3 things.

But in the bigger picture, try these two things as an experiment.

If you are a right handed shooter, you would use your left foot. Stand on the right side of the court, somewhere above the top of the key. Spin the ball out toward the baseline. Sprint after the ball, catch it and immediately shoot it. Then, do it on the left side. Full speed. Do both shots feel the same? If not, you are setting yourself up to be a poor shooter.

Second, simulate catching the ball on the left wing. The pass comes from the top as you are holding space against your defender with your left side (you would be angled so you are facing the passer. It would be just as easy to put your left side against a wall to simulate this situation. Once you catch the ball, what are you going to do? Remember, you have to pivot with your left foot. Where are you going to go? You can pivot with your right foot but then your pivot foot wouldn't be permanent, would it? You have cut off most of your offensive options.

If you want to ask, "Well, I was just asking about shooting," you can't do that. the game is a jigsaw puzzle where all the pieces have to fit together. To be effective, you can't use one pivot to only shoot and others to do other things. The pieces don't fit. Defensively, if I recognize you only use 1 pivot foot, I am positive I can shut you down.

I am sure that Don and Mike have worked with a lot of players. Mikey certainly has worked with the best, not only with the Mavs but when he was with Attack in Chicago. But I have worked with quite a few as well. None of the players I have worked with have used a permanent pivot foot. Doesn't mean they're not out there, I just haven't worked with any.

More important than that, was my own experience as a player. I was a very good shooter and I was taught permanent pivot foot when I was young and I used it for a long time. As I moved up in competition I discovered that it was incredibly limiting and I feel it really hurt my progression as a player. A lot of that comes from looking back, so a certain amount of that is conjecture. I do know that when I work with players of all levels and teach them to use both feet to create a repeatable shot, their whole game get better, and quickly.

Author:  Coach Sar [ 22 Oct 2014, 10:54 ]
Post subject:  Re: Permanent Pivot

Hi Don .

I am a firm believer in doing what you do best.... I believed in using the inside pivot foot approach... it just seems more natural to me and that's why I taught it .

I certainly wont question your expertise or those other coaches - but we have to teach what we believe in.

Something I used to say a lot, "that's why they have vanilla and chocolate ice cream."

Author:  kelbickd [ 22 Oct 2014, 11:07 ]
Post subject:  Re: Permanent Pivot

When did they come up with Vanilla?

Author:  Coach Sar [ 22 Oct 2014, 11:10 ]
Post subject:  Re: Permanent Pivot

Thats what I always said to Brian Williams.

Author:  mccoy1 [ 22 Oct 2014, 12:43 ]
Post subject:  Re: Permanent Pivot

Don, when you say inside foot shooting do you mean the foot opposite your shooting hand or do you mean the foot always closest to the lane?

Author:  kelbickd [ 22 Oct 2014, 13:04 ]
Post subject:  Re: Permanent Pivot

Foot closest to the basket

Author:  JeffHaefner [ 22 Oct 2014, 15:46 ]
Post subject:  Re: Permanent Pivot

I'm a right handed shooter and I personally think it's very difficult to shoot a pull up jump shot (off the dribble) when going to my left and using the permanent pivot. You have to slow down more and it's much more difficult to decelerate, stop, and get a good jump.

I also know the athletic performance gurus tell you to decelerate with your inside foot. This reduces injury, allows you to change speed quicker, and allows you to quickly get into an agile and athletic position. So to me it just makes sense to use your inside foot (closest to the basket) when shooting a jump shot. It's just seems real difficult and awkward to decelerate with your outside foot when dribbling in the direction of your weakhand. I just watch players and they have to slow down quite a bit when using that permanent pivot going in the direction of their non shooting hand.

Even if you are a "quick stop" / "jump stop" shooting coach... if you watch high level players closely, they still put their inside foot down first to decelerate. You can hardly tell unless you watch them shoot with a jump stop in slow motion. It's so fast at normal speed you can't tell that their inside foot plants a split second before the outside foot.


Author:  stedak [ 03 Nov 2014, 09:56 ]
Post subject:  Re: Permanent Pivot

JeffHaefner wrote:

...I also know the athletic performance gurus tell you to decelerate with your inside foot...


Do you have a link or reference for this?


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