I coach 5th/6th grade team in a local rec league. On offense I have the team start in the positions for the 5- out open post offense. Up to this point we've been very successful running a simple give and go between the point and wing. Our wing player always starts with a v-cut to get open. To keep the defense guessing we also start with the wing player cutting to the basket and the corner player filling the wing spot to receive the pass from the point, and then the give and go. This has worked well also. But opposing teams are now overplaying both our wing and corner players--making the entry pass very difficult with either of the above options. The defense knows that my corner player is going to fill the wing spot and beats them there. I tell my players to back cut when over played, and they do. But the fact is, our point guard is also being overplayed, which makes it very difficult to pass to the person who is back cutting. So, I'm interested in starting a discussion on how to progress from here, for skill levels of 5/6 grade rec league play.

Today we used some ball screens to get our guard a clear shot to the basket, and this worked pretty well. I would like to find a way to make the entry pass to he wing, though. We could try using a down screen --from wing to corner, but what would you do if the defense switches? Any other ideas?

Thanks,
Coach P

Another thought: if the defense is playing this tight our guard could try and go one on one to the hoop, as their will be little help defense...

Coach P -

We ran the Open Post Offense also... and when teams denied the wing entry pass we would back screen and step out ... the person receiving the back screen would cut all the way to the basket. IF they don't give reverse help, you will have a back door lay up, IF they do give reverse help, the player stepping out will be able to receive the pass.

At least this worked for us... AND if they are denying all over, like you said, take the ball to the hole since their should be little to no help.

Thoughts?

Lots of ways to enter the ball. I think it depends on the 5 out offense that you use. Do you run a pass and cut 5 out? Screen away? Something different. It helps to build on what players already know and put in an entry that flows seamlessly into your offense.

I also think you need to keep it simple so you can focus on as many fundamentals skills as you can with these young kids. Don Kelbick gave me some great advice this year when I was working on strategy for my 9th grade team...

He said, "Always put learning how to play basketball ahead of learning your system."

I think he real nailed it and was some of the best advice I have ever received. I already knew this but it really helped me refocus on the right things. Maybe you should just have a really simple double stack that you always use. Maybe you just need to teach players how to get open, use their body (block out) to seal on the wing and hold their hand out. Maybe the kids need to learn how to set better screens in the offense they are already using. Maybe your players need to improve their ball handling and use a really good back up dribble to relieve pressure while waiting for team mates to get open. Like I said, lots of ways to attack the problem. My suggestion is to come up with something that puts learning how to play ahead of learning YOUR system (that they may never used again when they get older).

BTW, when we ran the pass and cut open post offense, we just had them keep cutting when they were covered. We were always open on the third or fourth cut / circle through. So in essence, the offense didn't change. They just need to know that you need to cut again when you are covered and keep going.

Coach Sar and Jeff,

Thanks for your very good ideas and advice. Jeff, my system or framework is based on the 5 out, pass and cut offense. I like this offense because it can be used to teach basic offensive fundamentals like spacing, making v-cuts, making good passes, cutting after passing, etc. While many use a different type of offense, I feel the cut and fill offense teaches the game, and as such isn't so much a system, per se (but I will concede that's debatable). This offense can be as simple as you like (great for kids) or can be taught with additional, more advanced options which are often based on reading what the defense does. This was the reason for my original question--I want to teach the kids what to do when they are over played.

As you and Coach Sar mentioned, there are a number of options. The trick for me is figuring out which is the best option for teaching them the game, given their age and skill level.

Thanks,
Paul

We use the cut and fill offense (5 out) as described on this site, and we try to keep cutting when over played, as you suggest. I could use some advice on the following scenario:

If the wing is over played, they cut and will fill the corner spot on the same side.

The player in the corner will fill the wing spot, but if they are over played, they will also backdoor cut.

In this situation, the player who was originally in the wing position (now in the corner position, same side) must fill the wing position again. So, the wing player has gone from wing to basket to corner and now back to wing in order to get (hopefully) the entry pass. The timing of this throws the entry pass off. I am with you in wanting to teach players how to play basketball as opposed to teaching a system. But in this situation, what would you do? What's the best way to teach the game?

As I write this I am thinking that if I were the wing player and had just made the basket cut, and now I see the person in who had just filled that wing spot was also cutting to the basket, I would know I have to get open on the wing to receive the pass, and so I'd cut right back to the wing spot from the basket (avoid the corner). I would try and run off the person cutting to the basket to make it more difficult for my defender to follow me out to the wing. Maybe that's the answer...the challenge is keeping it simple enough for kids to understand. They are not able to read the defense very well, which is a challenge!

After the wing player makes a basket cut - and the next player is making a basket cut... you could avoid the corner by having the first cutter make some sort of an L cut... meaning he can break out from any spot on the free throw lane line.... block, mid post, elbow?

Does that make sense?

Here's what I did when I ran the open post with freshman several years ago...

We followed our same rules... if you are covered, basket cut looking for the ball, and then go to the corner. We kept the rules exactly the same and just emphasized timing. So when the first cut is covered, the next person (coming from the corner) waited to fill the spot until the first cutter was all the way to the basket, then they quickly cut to the open spot holding their hand out. With a good pass to the outside hand, it was usually open. If not, they just cut again. If out timing was good, the basic rules worked and we didn't have to change anything.

I'm not saying this is the best way to do things, it's just how we did it and it worked for us fairly well. It all comes down to prioritizing. For me, it was a simple fix and we worked on other things (skills). And we knew we were neglecting some fundamentals. You can't do it all in one year. So we really didn't mess much with screening and v-cuts.

Today I run a 4 out 1 in motion and we work more on offensive fundamentals (getting open, reading screens, sealing in the post, etc) than we used to when I ran the open post. I think I'll continue running 4 out 1 in but honestly there are pros and cons both ways. I think you just teach what you are comfortable with.

With our Open Post Offense, when anyone cut to the basket they came out the other side and everyone rotated to fill spots.... as for entering to the wings... if they were over playing, he wing could cut back door and make some sort of
"L" cut OR we would back screen and step out. That would usually free up the wing entry pass.

You could always dribble enter and that wing would make a cut according to your rules. Just another thought.